Love Like A Mother With Elizabeth Berget

A single late-night moment with a toddler sparked a question that can change how you pray: does God love us like a mother? We sit down with author Elizabeth Berget to talk about her book Love Like a Mother and the brave, careful work of expanding our understanding of God without losing our roots in scripture. If you’ve ever felt like the language you inherited for God was too small, too distant, or too tied to one kind of human experience, this conversation offers a bigger, more intimate picture.

We dig into why “God as mother” can feel jarring at first, and how Elizabeth learned to hold the tension between spiritual experience and biblical authority. We talk about maternal imagery in Isaiah, the Spirit’s closeness in seasons of exile and pain, and why limiting God to a narrow set of metaphors can create unnecessary barriers, especially for people carrying mother wounds or father wounds. Along the way, we name the reality of pushback and fear when women claim authority to speak about theology, and we share why we still believe this expansion is faithful.

Then we go embodied: motherhood as spiritual formation, the communion table and Eucharist through maternal eyes, and birth as a thin place where sacrifice and love become tangible. We also talk about mothering beyond biology, the kind of care that shows up in communities, and the slow practice of discernment, including how to notice what rings true in your body over time.

Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs a gentler God, and leave a review so more people can find the Expansionist Podcast. What’s one image of God that has helped you heal?

Transcript

Welcome And Introducing Love Like A Mother

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices, and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit, and love.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Good afternoon, and welcome to the Expansionist Podcast. Good to see you, Heather Drake and Elizabeth Brigett. It is awesome to have you here in studio with us today to talk about your new book that was released on May 5th. Love Like a Mother, How the Sacred Work of Motherhood Reveals the Maternal Heart of God. Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast. We're glad you're here.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Thank you. I'm really excited to talk with you both.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

First of all, I'm excited about the title. The title alone would have caught me, but the cover of your book is so beautiful too. Thank you for choosing that artwork or however that came about. It is beautiful, and that book laying on the table is so inspiring just um walking past the title. And we've had conversations at our house just because it was left on like the hall table, and somebody's like, whose book is this? And I'm like, you should read it. And so I'm so glad that you're actually here with us today. We're talking about God, which we do very often on the expansionist podcast. And one of the things that is so important to Shelly and I, as we've experienced ourselves and we are finding freedom for ourselves and others, is expanding our understanding about who God is, what God is like, and what God's intention is in building a kingdom here, right now, today, with the people that God loves.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

And I'll add building a queendom because I just love to say that. Building a queen. And so, uh Elizabeth, as you um as you introduce the book and yourself to us here today in the Expansionist Podcast, talk to us how I know the book was like eight years or so in the making. Is that right? Eight or ten?

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Yeah, I had the first idea around that time ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Um it was a long journey. You want to talk a little bit about that or sure.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Yeah, definitely. Thank you for the kind words about the book and the cover. Yeah, I'm not a visual artist, so the team at Brazos and the illustrator they worked with, Lucy Cartwright, just knocked it out of the park. So I'm I'm thrilled with it as well. But couldn't have done that if you gave me a million years and a million dollars.

The Night The Question Arrived

SPEAKER_03 2:25

So um yeah, so the book, yeah, it's had a really long gestation, I like to say, because um I the idea first came to me, uh, or the question really of does God love us like a mother more than the idea. The question of that came to me around, yeah, almost nine years ago now, when my youngest was two or almost two. And so um it was really a question I had to sit with. The idea of God as mother was a very new idea for me. It was, it was almost alarming. It felt a little, I felt a lot of tension around it at first because it was so new, despite having spent, you know, my entire life in church and and a very long time in the Bible and actively studying God's word. And um yet I had never really come across this idea. And so I had to really sit with that tension and I had to really sit in that research for a while. So I read very widely for a number of years, um, both in my Bible and just um a variety of other resources and authors, and finally came to the conclusion that yes, I do think God loves us like a mother, and I think this is really deeply rooted in scripture, and why aren't we talking about this more? And so about four or five years ago, it kind of switched from me trying to find the answer to that question to me saying, I think I want to, I want to tell more people about this. I think I want to write this book. And so, yeah, it's it's we're coming up on our 10-year anniversary of this idea here in my life. And so um, yeah, it's really been something, it's really beautiful to just have the book in the world and and and see the fruition of all of that coming.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

And and like the Magdalene, um, the good is within, right? Like the stories are within us. We we have this knowing or this remembering and and thank you for allowing it to evolve um from your own experience of motherhood and raising your kids and and seeing um uh the mothering side of God in doing that. I I I wonder if if we had grown up with that a little bit more, um, maybe we'd be further down the mothering God track than we are. But how do your kids, how are your kids uh grappling with this, not just the launch of the book? This is your first one, right? The first published book? Yeah. So how are they how are they grappling with uh with mom as author? I've seen a couple of your videos on Instagram where they ran into the Walmart or some bookstore and they were looking with you to find the book. That was just the cutest. Um so so how's all that settling with them to have to have this moment? And and what do they think about uh the mother inside of God?

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that they are kids, and so on the one hand, they're kind of ready to have their mom back. I've been, you know, distracted, especially

Writing While Raising Kids

SPEAKER_03 5:05

around the launch of the book. I've been really busy, and so um, in some senses, they're kind of like, hey, are you gonna like make dinner tonight? You know, they're just a little like ready for me to be a little more present. On the other hand, they're very excited for me, and it's been fun. I've kind of overheard them telling friends about it or um, and you know, like there's a little hint of pride in their voice. That that's so gratifying and lovely to see because I have missed out on time with them. It has been a sacrifice of of some quality time with them in order to do this. So um, yeah, I think it's a it's a range of emotions for them. But in terms of how they are thinking about God, I this is one of the most, I mean, I might even cry when I talk about this. My son had um, oh god, I don't even remember if it was like a school assignment or something, but something where he had to write, like, what is God like? And and he he it was like a bubble map, like a graphic organizer. And um, in one bubble, he said, you know, God is like a father because he um takes care of me and provides what I need. And then in another bubble, he had God is like a mother because I can always come to God when I'm sad and scared. And I I I mean, he he was probably 12 at the time that he wrote that. Um I would have never that would have never occurred to me as a 12-year-old. And so um I do think, I mean, like my parents gave me a very rich uh foundation for my faith. I'm so grateful for it. So I'm not trying to say, you know, it wasn't enough, but this wasn't a part of it. And so I it's really um gratifying to see my kids kind of growing up with that that slightly more expanded view um of who God is than than I got and that that many of us got as kids.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

I mean, I believe what when I when I read your book, I loved the way that you went back and explained the um the authenticity behind the experience and how the sacred spoke to you in that, or how you allowed the sacred to speak to you in that moment. And I'm wondering if you could talk to our listeners for a minute about how you came to the conclusion that it was okay to trust your experience, even when you went outside of the boundaries of what other people told you, how you could interpret this.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah, that was that there was a lot of tension. I mean, like I said, I sat in that for probably a good three years of saying, is this I mean, at first it was, oh my word, is this even okay to ask if God is like a mother? And then is it okay to explore it? Is it okay to think that? You know, I mean, it was just a real unfolding for me, um, very slow. So I feel a lot of empathy for people who have some tension around these ideas because I'm like, I get it, I get it. It's so jarring and new in some ways. Um,

Scripture Tension And Finding Confidence

SPEAKER_03 7:35

but in terms of, yeah, like I'll speak a little bit to the experience and then how I came to trust it. Really, I was, I talk about this in the introduction of the book, but I was just rocking my youngest to sleep one night, trying to get him to bed while my husband was like fighting for his life with our three and four-year-old across the hall and just ticking through my day and thinking of all the things. I mean, it felt like we'd been up for a bajillion hours by that point. And, you know, I'd been doing all the little things that come along with taking care of little kids, you know, uh wiping applesauce off their chins and buckling and unbuckling car seats and forcing naps and bandaging wounds and picking them up when they're tantruming, you know, just all these tiny acts of minutiae. And um, I just really remember having that question, which I do believe was the Spirit of God speaking to me, saying, wait a minute, just does God love you like this? Does God ceaselessly pay attention to you like this? Does God relentlessly love you? Does God provide everything you need? Does God know what your face looks like when you're hungry and tired and scared and sad? And I I felt that yes in me right away. And even, and I talk about this in the book, you know, I have this lifetime of Sunday school and awanas and youth group, and I went to Bible college, and all of a sudden, all these Bible stories that were so familiar to me, it's it was like I turned them over and there was this whole undiscovered side of them that had never been there. So even that night, that first night that that question really arose for me, I sensed the answer to my question, does God love us like a mother? was yes. But I had to sit with that and I really had to learn to trust that because, you know, I think um, for better or worse, it had been drilled into me like, well, if it's not in scripture, it's not true. And there is truth to that. And so I really, I mean, I probably read through my Bible cover to cover four times in those years, just going, is this here? Am I making God in my own image? Am I trying to create something that's not? So I really um I think it was a both and that I learned to trust myself and the fact that I felt like the spirit really kind of just plopped this idea into my lap. It wasn't something I'd been thinking about or reading about or praying about at all prior to that moment. And I did find a resounding echoed yes in scripture. And so I think those two tangents kind of came together where I felt a measure of confidence enough to say, I think I want to start putting this idea out there. I think this is true. Um, but it did definitely take me some time. And I mean, even now I get some really ugly DMs going, who are you to say this? And I'm like, yeah, who am I? Who are any of us? Yeah. Like, I mean, it's just, it's, I, it's, I get it. Um, but I do sense that confidence that I do think the Spirit of God has has led me here because I didn't, I wouldn't have wanted this 12 years ago. I wouldn't have anticipated that I was here. It's not like I was looking to, you know, be a heretic or anything. So it's like I don't, I don't want that. I want to be faithful to who God is and try to try to represent that to the world.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

But then also being true to yourself and going as a woman, as a mother, this is how God is expressing God's self to my people, to the people that I'm you know expressing this to. And all of my feminine and motherly uh parts are an an offer from the divine to experience the divine in such a beautiful way.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

Yeah. And I think, I mean, I I'll I'll piggyback onto that because one of the things that sort of compelled me or propelled me over the edge of, ooh, am I confident enough to talk about this? Was I got a little angry. I was like, what, what, where am I in the story of God? Where am I in God's image? Why, you know, this experience of I'm up in the night with a sick kid for hours in a steamy shower because they can't stop talking and the or the shower's running, we're not in the shower, we're sitting in the bathroom. Like, where is that experience? Like, how is that not representative of God's love? So I think there's there was definitely a um, I think motherhood femininity is so embodied and the truth of that is undeniable. Like when you're cleaning vomit off the carpet in the middle of the night, like there's nothing else besides that happening, right? You're all in on that experience. And so um, I think that also, I think will Icho that Heather is just to say, like, yeah, there was something so true in what I was living that I I felt like I this needs to be talked about more. This this has spiritual implications, these daily, very grounded, embodied experiences we're having.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

And in those implications or in those experiences, we are able to recognize the work of spirit or the opportunity of the sacred to be in the present moment with God and to find ourselves there, our own sovereignty. Uh this is the season of Pentecost, and so we love to talk about the spirit, obviously, not just during Pentecost, but there's a verse in John's gospel where it says the spirit will teach you all things. And I think there's so much about being a mom that our kids actually teach us how to mother them. Like it doesn't, we don't, you know, get the full report beforehand, this is a child, this is what they leave your kids study up on it. You show up with an open heart and some training, like maybe from somebody else or from a previous kid, but every child is so different, every person so different. So learning how to love people well, I think is really taught to us in motherhood when we go to give ourselves sacrificially and even beyond what we feel like we can give. And still we find this untapped reservoir of love and of commitment to these people that ultimately we've just met when we bring them home from the hospital or something, we're like, nope, I'm committed with my whole life to this. And I really see the evidence in that kind of love where often in script not only in scripture, but in the stories that we're told that God as father is very distant. God as mother is so unbelievably close. And I think that there's a beautiful um resurgence or uh a relearning which Jesus invites us to. You have heard it said, but I say to you that God is also going to be with you always.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that really echoes too, even what we see in like the book of Isaiah, where um he, you know, he tells the Israelites, remember the former things of old, also don't remember the former things of old. Like I'm doing a new thing. And like um, something I talk about in the book is where Isaiah is so rich with maternal imagery for God. And it really shows sort of a pivot or an evolution in their theology based on their everyday experiences of being in exile and being in despair. Like they needed a God that was very close to them. They needed a God that was very familiar with the pain and desperation that they were in. And so, yeah, I definitely think there is something to like that openness to the spirit, that openness to learning. And then I love how you talked about how our children teach us about Jesus because I think I talk about this in the book that it's almost this two-way um uh directional learning. So, on the one hand, I think women are bearing the image of God, they are loving like God when they're mother, because it is so sacrificial, um, just by nature. And I'm not saying anyone needs to be a martyr, but it is just by nature. Your time is not your own, and their needs do very regularly come first for a long time, especially when they're little. And so not only are we imaging God, but we are imaging our children when we look at God. Like the same way that our kids look to us for comfort, security, um, safety, their needs to be met, stability, peace, like uh calm when they're fearful. We are looking to God for those same things. So I think there's

Motherhood As A Window Into God

SPEAKER_03 14:55

just this beautiful opportunity within motherhood to learn that we are indeed children of God and also learn that we are like God in the way that we mother, or we can be like God in the way that we love.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

And I love some of the imagery that you gave us. And again, I I was telling Shelly earlier in the show that sometimes it when I was reading, it felt a little bit like a memoir. Like I felt um very personal to you because, and I appreciate so much your vulnerability and the way that you found your authentic voice in the writing. I felt like um I knew you and I had not met you. And so that was a really wonderful um place to be. What I'm most intrigued with is this understanding that my children have given me around the Eucharist or around the communion table and what that means for me as an adult person to continue to widen the circle or widen the tables so more people can be mothered by the spirit. And that first time that I recognized that when as I gave the communion, I was saying, This is my body broken for you. And I was thinking, this is like every time I had a baby, every time I say no, but like you said, and over and over again, that brokenness feels so feminine, feels so maternal. And then offering that to the world, that that's the kind of God that is inviting us close, is not a standoffish God, but a God who is with us when we cannot we do not like ourselves or the God around us or our own bodies or the pain that we're in, and just being able to say, I'm here with you. I'm not leaving because you're sick, I'm not leaving because you've thrown a tantrum. I'm not leaving because you have made a mess. I'm here.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

Yeah, yeah. No, that's such a powerful image. I mean, I I'm kind of an open book of a person, so I yeah, I do tell a lot of stories in the book, a lot of personal stories. I mean, um, and and my birth story, several components of my birth stories are included as well, because I'm kind of a birth story junkie in general. But I think um there is so much power in a birthing space. I also did birth photography for a number of years and got to witness it without really being a participant, which was its own very separate experience. But I think birth in general is just such a thin place, right? Between the divine and the physical. And then you see these women, and I'm never gonna tell you what kind of birth to have, whether you went medicated or not, but whatever your birth scenario is, like you see women giving, like essentially dying to themselves in the process of matrescence, you know, and we read, I'm so bad with numbers, I think it's John 13, 15, or maybe 15, 13. No greater love has anyone than this than they lay down their life for a friend. And we see that echoed in birth that mothers are dying to themselves, not physically, but sacrificing a tremendous amount physically. But they are especially, I think, a first-time mom giving birth. There's that, there's that dying of the old self and the becoming of a mother, the matrusis process that like is a death and a rebirth. And I think mothers really give us a strong image of Jesus' words. This is my body, take and eat. This is my blood given for you. Like when we can frame that, when we can kind of put on our maternal goggles and say, well, what if a mother was saying that to us? I think it just, it just, it's just like increases our love for who God is, for who the spirit is, right? To say, wow, God did that for me. God wanted my life to be so new and soul renewed and so remade and so full and abundant that God was willing to do that for me. So yeah, I absolutely think there's so much power in in framing the Eucharist um with that kind of parameter or context.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

I like that you drew our attention to the threshold moment that birth is and also death is. And it is important um for Shelly and I, as we continue to look to threshold moments to find an expansion, how the spirit expands us, what we are being expanded and asked to include. And for me, when I read your work, and when again, I I love that it is among Shannon Evans is a favorite of Vine and Rewilding, and the so many beautiful um points that you brought us to were ones that I've already been chewing on. So I really appreciated that. But the invitation into more, the invitation into allowing the spirit to re-mother us when maybe our own mothers have failed us and our own mothers have not given us what we wanted or what we needed, or maybe it was beyond their capacity. But to be able to say that to have a God who not only fathers us, but mothers us is an invitation into wholeness and to the work of Christ with us.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

Yeah, absolutely. I think like so a big point I make in the book is like we're not looking to replace God the Father, we're looking to expand, which is so on brand for this podcast, right? Um but we're looking, we we as humans, we're so limited in how we can know God. I mean, God's ways are higher than our ways, um, even though God is intimate and close through the work of the incarnation and the spirit. But like we're just doing our best, right? It's a little bit like throwing darts in the dark. We're saying, well, God is kind of like a rock and God is kind of like a shepherd, and God is kind of like a shield, and God is kind of like a father, and God is kind of

Eucharist Birth And The Maternal Christ

SPEAKER_03 19:55

like a mother. And all of these metaphors not only serve to make, I think, God more whole, our image of God more whole and expansive, but as you said, it does make us more whole. So whether or not we've had a wonderful mothered experience, whether we are aching for a mother, we all have this need and desire to be mothered, and that need, like all others, is best met in God. And I think the flip side of that is true too. Like if you are someone who grew up with a father, that where the where the word dad makes you wince a little bit, if you are only given a picture of God the Father, that's gonna be really prohibitive. That's gonna be a barrier for you, right? And so I think when we limit God to a set amount of metaphors that, um, and we ignore the metaphors that are right there in scripture, we're we're providing hindrances to people on both sides of that, um, whether they are looking for a mother or have a mother wound or have a father wound, like we're providing unnecessary barriers because those barriers don't exist in scripture.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend. And if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionisttheology.com.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

I want to dive in here for a second with you with you both. I think between you you might have like eight children, I think. And I have zero. Um and so my experience of motherhood is raising uh some children that I did not birth. However, your your point, uh, Elizabeth, in the beginning, that you set three years with this notion, with this drop that spirit had placed within you, in your mind, your heart, your spirit. And and you had to wade through that. And you had to decide is this is this valid? Is this real? Is this something that I can trust? Um, and maybe both of you can speak to this, but as mothers, um maybe it's easier to see the hand of God in In in that way, to see the mothering side of God through motherhood. But what if you're what if you haven't mothered? What if you haven't birthed uh a child? Um and spirit drops in and says to you, I'm like a mother. I, you know, I'm like this mother hen that gathers her chicks. I am I am a good shepherd that comforts and holds you. Like, what why does it take us so long to trust the feminine mothering spirit of God uh within us? Maybe Elizabeth and then Heather from a mother's perspective, too. Um what do you all say?

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Yeah, I think a couple things come to mind. One is just kind of touching back on what I said before, we all are born with a need to be mothered. You know, attachment theory posits that, like when our earliest needs are met, particularly by a mother figure, although it's I it's not entirely exclusive, but you know, our brains are wired for trust and connection. So, in other words, like we're coming out of the womb looking for connection and care. And I think um God is eager to meet that need, whether you are a mother or not, whether you are a woman or not. Like that's that's a need we all have is to be mothered. And so I think um that is applicable across the board. And then, you know, there's a um, I'm sort of riffing off of both Amy Peeler and Mary Daly here, but you know, if we cannot see um God in the feminine, we're not, or if we can't see the feminine in God, we're not gonna see God in the feminine. So that's that takes us out of the maternal, right? Like, um, while my book is very centered on motherhood and the maternal aspects of God, the broader conversation here is does God have feminine qualities? Are women fully made in the image of God? And so, you know, whether or not you're mothering, I think that's something that all of us need to be more aware of is that women do fully bear the image of God. They are fully made in the image of God. And that says something true about God, that God is like women. God has feminine qualities that we just aren't talking about as much.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Do we just need more people saying those things in like preaching or in writing or in songs? Like we're not hearing, we're not being given permission. Not that we need somebody else's permission, but it almost feels like there's there's a floodgate that wants to be opened. Um, and it's unfortunate that it takes us so long that we have to sit. Maybe spirit does need to tarry with us for a while. Maybe we do need to sit with her and think about um what is next. Um, but I I think maybe all of us have had this experience where we waited because we weren't sure if it was the right time or the right move or

Expanding God Language To Heal Wounds

SPEAKER_01 24:45

the right opportunity or the right, you know. Um so I think that I I just have a lot of curiosity as to uh how we how we expand spirit, you know, and the word of spirit uh among us as we're as we're listening to and reading, listening to you and reading books like this one that is gonna open people's um minds to maybe see it in a different way.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

I think too, like um something that is uh that really came into sort of startling clarity for me this past winter. I live in Minneapolis, we experienced the um Operation Metro Surge with um so many ICE agents and just a lot of chaos and pain um here. And yes, I don't need to, you know, I could talk about this for hours, but the main thing I'd like to say is what happened here was the work of a mother. The way I saw my community come together and take care of our the most vulnerable among us, yeah, that was mothering. And I had mother friends that were doing that, and I had women who have never mothered doing that, and I had men mothering. Like it was just this this care of are you eating? Do you have a place to stay? Do you have clean clothes? Do you have access to medicine? How can I make you feel safer? It was just that was that was in the air. And I so I think for for people who haven't mothered, that's that's like one way they can really, I think all of us are mothering in in some way or another, in some relationship in our life, um, whether we whether we call it that or not. And as far as like why we don't call it that, I I mean, I this is something I'm really thinking about. I'm I'm speaking at this conference this weekend and I I've been thinking exactly about this: that like, are we devaluing vulnerability? Are we devaluing interdependence and connectivity? And so in that we devalue the work of mothering because that's what mothering is. And so I, as far as why we're resistant to it or how we can get it more, I do. It's like, I would love every sermon to have one tie to the feminine. I don't care what kind of church you're from. Like, can you find a way to make your sermon more accessible to the women in your congregation? Like, like, I like the way I think about it is like, throw us a bone, you know, like just like do the work to dig deep. But I think it's just something that's new. Something that does encourage me, though. I feel like I'm talking a lot here, but something that does really encourage me is when I started thinking about this eight years ago, I didn't know anyone else who was talking about this. I didn't know any of their books about this. I I was I was scouring the internet for podcasts and YouTube channels and Instagram. I I couldn't find it. And now, I mean, whether that's just the the gift of the algorithm or just the gift of time, or like you said, there's some kind of floodgate. I do feel like there's a lot of momentum around this idea, and I'm very eager to see what will be of it.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Yeah, so be it. So be that.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

I also bring to our attention that our whole culture and world is in pain. And when we are in pain, we all need our mothers. And so I think that sometimes this collective pain makes us go back and go, oh, wait a second, who is gonna help me carry this? Who is gonna make this better? Who is going to give me what I need to in order to heal from this kind of pain? And so I am hopeful that our, again, the rising of the collective consciousness that says that the feminine heart of God that has always been available is drawing us into a deeper and more holy, holy relationship with ourselves and with the world, that we are also nurtures, that in giving the gift of the invitation to the table of the Lord is an invitation into again, I think the very feminine thing, come and eat. That's such a beautiful invitation to say, sit down, have something to drink, tell us your story, and you'll be fed here, is again the work of Christ, but also a very feminine work. And the gift of hospitality that we're invited into, the hospitality of spirit that all women are invited into or all nurturers, not just women, but the invitation into that gentleness, into that kindness, into that patience and the way that spirit describes spirit self of goodness. That is the work of a woman. So we hear your call. Yeah, go ahead. No, I said we hear your call. And we will make sure that the Shelly, put it as feedback on your uh preaching little sermon. Um you had an outline for preaching, and I won't put that on the sermon preaching outline. At least one feminine rest.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Uh well, I think it's yeah, it's it it's like, why aren't we? Why aren't we doing this? Why why exclude um this this side of God that that we have come to?

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Yeah, I think partially it's in oversight. I think partially it's because very often men have carried the story. They've been permitted to carry the story. And so really carrying the story has always been woman's work. It is Mary who shows us that God decided that a woman was needed in order for Jesus to come. And so I think part of our work now in the world, and I commend you very much, Elizabeth, is taking our own authority and saying, nope, the women will speak now, and we will tell you about the feminine heart of God. We will tell you about it.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah, I want to I wanted to go back to that, Heather, when when Elizabeth was saying that she's getting these these DMs about, you know, you're not allowed to say these things. Um I I think I think that's also part of the the fear of uh, you know, after we sit with uh what spirit has given us is can I say that? Can I put that out into the into the universe? Can I write that down? Um, you know, part of part of it is is the fear that someone else is going to come and attack our door and and burn our house down, uh, whatever they decide to do. Um but I've come to realize that that could be about anything. You know, it just there's there's always going to be someone that doesn't see it the same way. And so if they don't see it, including my own mother, she might

Mothering Beyond Biology And Slow Discernment

SPEAKER_01 31:05

not see it the same way that I see it. Um and so there's there's a tension, and there's in that intention, sometimes there there is this uh expansion. And that is my hope. Um that people that cannot see the divine feminine in in in the presence of God, which you talk about in your book. Thank you for talking about the do you say shekina or shekinah?

SPEAKER_03 31:30

How do you say I usually say shekinah, but I feel like it's 50-50. I've I've even asked Jewish scholars and I've had them give me different answers. So I go either way.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Yeah, I I love that that made it into that that her presence uh made it into the book. Um but one question that I have um too is I I know this is really new. The book is really new. Uh it just it just was published this this month. Um, but do you feel uh a book two in your soul from what um people are sharing or asking, or um, you know, just even in your own spirit right now?

SPEAKER_03 32:12

Um I feel like a book one and a half. Like I have kind of some half-baked ideas um that are sort of I don't have anything that I'm like, I gotta write this down. I I've got a lot of swirling ideas. Um I think, you know, yeah, based on the questions people have or the pushback or the or the even the negative comments people have had, you know, I tried to make this book really invitational to people who might feel tension around this. I tried to write it, I mean, for I mean, I didn't, I wasn't like, you know, you kind of pick a target audience, but I tried to write it in such a way that maybe people who feel tension around this would feel invited into the conversation and not just like I was speaking into an echo chamber of people who already agreed with me. Um, I do think in the process of writing this, there are things that I came across, ideas that I'm currently sitting with to think, okay, do I, do I believe this? Do I think that's true that are a little bit maybe more expansive, that are a little maybe more out there that I'm like, okay, I could maybe write about that. Um, but I'm just in that period of sitting and going, does does this continue to ring true day after day after day, or was this just sort of a flash in the pan idea or image? Or um, you know, like I I've been really sitting with a lot of the symbolism of the exile, of how birth-like that is. That yeah, um, and I know people have written about that. So you know, just some things like that that I think I don't want to sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist with my like tinfoil hat that like birth is everywhere in the Bible, but it kind of is. And so I just, you know, there's some ideas like that that I'm you know kicking around while I'm doing dishes or gardening or taking a walk.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

But I also remind Shelly that it there is a rule of etiquette that is um generally known. You don't ask someone who has just given birth whether they would give birth again. Sometimes sometimes the the pain of that is it's all too fresh. And you're like, give them a couple years and then ask if they'll do that again. It's so true.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Okay, there it is.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

It's very true, but I also literally minutes after giving birth to my daughter, who's my second child, went, I gotta do this one more time. I can't be done. So I think it's but it's also gone both ways. You know, they're after giving birth to my first, I thought, well, I am never gonna ride a bike or sit crisscross appetite house again. So this this is it for me. Um, so yeah, I could definitely relate with both. But yeah, I've got I always have ideas that I'm kicking around, but whether or not they'd be a book or just like an essay series or something, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

But I also want to go back and just uh again circle back around to what you were describing in that process. And what you are describing is sitting with the spirit and having a time of discernment. And I would like for you to just talk about maybe that as um a practice. I loved also the practices that you included at the end of the chapters, and particularly the breath pairs, because sometimes as a mother, it just feels like we can't do one more thing, not one more hard thing. And this idea to try softer. How about just in your inhale and exhale? Can you connect with us? And so those contemplative things are so beautiful. Thank you for adding that. But can you just for a moment talk about that process of discernment or what it looks like for you to discern the working of the spirit in figuring out and sitting and listening?

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Where do you feel it in your body? I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. That's a great question. And I have an answer. I'm just kind of trying to put words to it. I think um, where do I feel that in my body? Did my therapist pay you to say that? That's a great question. No, I didn't. Yeah. Where do you feel it in your body when this is a good thing? I do, yeah. I do.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

I am like Heather often asked that question. It's such a good question.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

And I am like so in my head a lot that I forget. Yes. Um, okay, a couple, a couple things come to mind. One is I I just generally tend to think that the presence of God is sort of hiding in plain sight all around us. I think the true, I'm, I'm like, I feel like our entire life is a parable. Like every single thing we do, there's an opportunity to know God's love. And so I'm kind of just always, not always, I mean, I watch plenty of TV, but I'm just saying, like, I'm I'm generally walking through life with those lenses on, going, like, what do you have for me today? What do you want me to see? What do you want me to hear? And I just kind of find, and I know this paints me probably as a little bit mystical, and that's that's a brand I'm I'm happy to wear, but like I think often an idea will pop up for me. And then I even talk about this in the book. There's the Bader-Meinhof principle that when you like hear a new word for the first time, suddenly you hear it four or five other times, or you see a car you like, and then suddenly you can see it everywhere on the highway. I think the spirit of God is a lot like that. And it, you know, you kind of kind of find I have an idea or a question, and I just sit with it. And then suddenly it's like, okay, I hear this conversation about it, or somebody brings this element up, or I didn't think about this facet of it that I heard on this podcast or in a book I'm reading. Um, so I kind of just sit with ideas and wait to see what sort of, it's almost like a diamond, like what facet is gonna reveal itself in a given day. Um, and I do feel things in my body. So I am, I'm like, everything's in my gut and diaphragm. Like I, I, I have the digestive system, like, like a I it's I have the worst digestive system. And it just because my nervous system is so in tune with every little emotional, spiritual, like I I feel it right in the center of myself. And so often if an idea really feels weighty, yeah, I'll feel it just kind of right here under my rib cage, like a pressure and a tightness and either a discomfort. Um, and so yeah, that's a really vague, kind of floaty answer. But I just kind of and I I write things down. I I feel like I'm um, oh gall, I'm so bad at remembering movies, but like, oh, it's it's such an old movie. It doesn't matter, anyways. But I I'm constantly just in my notes, in my Google Docs, on a post-it note, just as an idea comes to me writing it, and then I sort of collect those into little essays or do I want to write about this? Do I want to think about this more? Is this continuing to be true enough that I feel like I can say it to somebody else and have it be true and beautiful and good and helpful? So that's kind of what the process looks like for me. That's a great question. I haven't answered that before.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Yeah. Well, you did a wonderful job. That was very helpful. And thank you for, you know, even painting that idea of what does it look like for each of us to discern the work of the spirit and our own discernment is essential in maturing and in expanding our version or our vision of who God really is and how we can mirror that to the world.

SPEAKER_03 38:37

Yeah. I'll just add this one thing. I think we're we're probably wrapping up here, but I think something that a lot of us, especially in the West, uh maybe intrinsically feel is that there's a there's a ticking clock to these things. That's like, okay, I gotta know what I think. And the internet really functions like that. Social media functions like what's your hot take? And I think there's just so much gentleness in knowing that if the spirit of God wants us to know something, we'll know it. We'll get there. It's there's no, there's no deadline. And even if you die not fully knowing something, like I don't think God's gonna be mad at us, you know, for not fully under not knowing our exact take on every single belief. Like, I just think there's so much patience the spirit has has with us, and to remember, like, we are newborns in this world, we are doing our best, and we're we're always growing, and the spirit knows that. And so um, just to be so patient with yourself, if you feel like, well, I don't, I don't really know what I think, or this is a new idea for me and this, or this is uncomfortable for me. I gotta sit with this. Like, you have time. There's no there's no stopwatch.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Thank you, uh, Elizabeth, for being our guest and um sharing these deep thoughts and beautiful imagery of God as as our mother.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Thank you so much for being here. We love the conversation and look forward to um from hearing more from you. So hooray for this time. Thank you for your grace and for the effort that you put here and blessings on your family and all the things that you have to do for the rest of this week. Um, thank you, Shelly, for this time. And may love and the spirit expand all of us and may we receive the mothering, the heart of Christ, in everything that we do. It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheology.com.