The Expansionist Podcast
Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake invite you to listen in on a continuing conversation about expanding spirituality, the Divine Feminine, and the transforming impact of living attuned to Wisdom, Spirit and Love.
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The Expansionist Podcast
Pray Like You Mean Freedom: with Liz Theoharis and Charon Hribar
Prayer isn't just words whispered in sacred spaces—it's marching in the streets, demanding justice from those in power, and standing in solidarity with the marginalized. This revolutionary understanding of spirituality sits at the heart of "We Pray Freedom," a groundbreaking liturgical collection from theologians Liz Theoharis and Charon Hribar.
The book reimagines prayer as "the work of the people" in its most authentic sense, featuring contributions from over 80 grassroots leaders—unhoused organizers, low-wage workers, and faith activists—who share liturgies born from their communities' struggles. These prayers, songs, and rituals emerge not from theological institutions but from lived experiences of injustice and visions for a more equitable world.
Take the biblical story of the persistent widow, often interpreted narrowly as encouraging consistent personal prayer. Theoharis reframes it powerfully: "This woman goes to this person with power and demands justice and wins it, and that's how we pray without ceasing." This perspective invites us to see prayer not as passive acceptance but as persistent action toward justice.
Both authors bring deep personal connections to this work. Liz Theoharis, raised in a movement family, experienced housing insecurity firsthand. Charon Hribar grew up in a small steel town, witnessing economic devastation when the industry collapsed. Their paths converged at Union Theological Seminary, where they established the Kairos Center, connecting faith communities with economic justice movements.
Whether you're a longtime activist, spiritual seeker, or someone questioning traditional religious practices, "We Pray Freedom" offers a fresh vision of spirituality that doesn't separate faith from action. It's an invitation to join what might be called the "Freedom Church"—not an institution, but a community committed to embodying prayer through working for justice, freedom, and peace in our world.
Visit weprayfreedom.org for additional resources, including music videos and organizing tools, or join the Freedom Church of the Poor virtually on Sundays at 6pm Eastern to experience this transformative approach to spirituality in community.
You can buy their new book here: https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9798889830344/We-Pray-Freedom
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit and love. Good afternoon, shelley Shepard. It's joy for me to be with you in the studio today. We're here with our friends new friends, but totally friends Liz Theoharis and Sharon Rebar, and I am so excited about what we are going to talk about today, in what it will unveil for us, but also in the divine connection that we are making together and celebrating the voices of women, amplifying spirit and heading, I think, farther up and further in yes, thank you.
Shelly Shepherd:Thank you, heather, for that joy that you poured into our hands to start this, I think, a really, really deep conversation and a wide tributary that is so much needed to talk about, in particular, for women to be talking about. I think this, uh, this is timely in in many ways in our country and in our world. But I'm excited, liz and and sharon, to uh just learn from your wisdom in in this new book that we're going to tee up here for for our listening audience and hopefully, um, it will stir some minds and hearts to go check out the work that you're doing and what you have your hands full of from day in to day out in our world, in talking with the poor and upholding justice and freedom for all. So I'm excited to have this conversation today, welcome.
Charon Hribar:Thank you, really happy to be here.
Liz Theoharis:Yeah, so good to be with you.
Heather Drake:I'm so grateful that we're going to talk about your book, which is upcoming, correct. It's going to be launched very soon Into the World, birthed Into the World September 9th, so that's oh, hooray, hooray, congratulations, almost there. But this is a liturgical book, or a book that explains liturgy or contains liturgy, so I wanted to pause just for a moment. Before we start talking about the we Pray Freedom book might be saying, well, that's not for me, and I would like to talk for a moment at how liturgy is for everybody, and it is one of the beautiful tools that Spirit gives us to be able to change our world, change ourselves, to transform everything. So head in there. Why a liturgical?
Charon Hribar:book. Yeah, I can start and say that when we look at the word liturgy, it really is about being the work of the people and so, in its foundation, really, this book is about lifting up the work and the powerful ways that people are gathering and creating community and practicing their faith in the world. It is the work of the people and so, you know, when we look at these practices and part of creating this book is to demystify, you know who has the authority to create ritual and prayer and liturgies in the world. It's really a space to lift up that you know. Really it is coming out of everyday people and especially poor and dispossessed people, both historically in the Bible, that many of the stories of the Bible are communities of poor and dispossessed people that were coming together to be a community of faith and to practice that faith by. You know, both worshiping God, but what worshiping God meant was to take care of one another, to take care of the earth and to bring about, you know, the world that God believed was possible and wanted to have, and so you know, I think, that this, when we think about, you know, rituals especially, you know we have rituals every day in our lives. You know from the most mundane things of you know what cup we're going to grab to drink our coffee to. You know from the most mundane things of you know what cup we're going to grab to drink our coffee to.
Charon Hribar:You know the practices of people gathering to you know to mourn when somebody that we love dies, or when we come together to celebrate new life, or when we come together to call out the injustices of our society. Right, all of these are practices, and so you know they are things we carry into our faith institutions, and they have been reified and reinforced in those kind of institutions, but really, where they start is in community. They come out of the fact that we, as people, want to make meaning in life and we want to be able to share and affirm the values that we hold dear, and so this book really is about that. It is about lifting up the ways that you know communities all over this country are coming together to express the deep values of love and justice and care that they, as communities of faith, hold, and how they can practice that in the world.
Shelly Shepherd:There's a I believe it was in yes, it was in this book where you talk about top-down liturgy as compared to the community of people you know from the ground up liturgy and you did a great job. Thank you for that introduction of your definition, but talk to us a little bit about the difference between you know in every Sunday liturgy that we might hear in an Orthodox setting to what you're talking about with the clay that's in your hands. How is this liturgy different than what we might hear on a weekly basis?
Liz Theoharis:Well, even from the very beginning of this publication, we have this favorite Bible story of mine, that is, this woman who's known many times as the persistent widow. And this is this passage that happens in Luke. And I love the Bible, especially outside of a church context. But I love the Bible especially outside of a church context, but I love the Bible in all contexts. And you have this story in Luke's gospel that is about this woman and it starts off saying that I'm going to teach you a parable about praying, constantly praying, without ceasing right. And then it goes into the story of this woman who has been robbed of justice and she keeps on going to this unjust judge, and this judge it's clear from the text doesn't care about human beings and doesn't fear God. And then this woman keeps on coming back and coming back and coming back and she wears him down. So much in the Greek of the text. It tells us basically that he was worried that she's going to give him a black eye.
Liz Theoharis:Now I don't know if it means that she's going to go and actually punch him out, or um, or if she's just wearing him down and it's she's going to make him look bad? Um and she doesn't. He doesn um and she doesn't. He doesn't care about people, he doesn't care about god, but but still, what happens?
Liz Theoharis:um, through this woman's quote, unquote prayer right um, which is her actions in the world and her persistence of going to this place of injustice and seeking it, seeking justice, seeking right relationship. In the end she gets justice, and I just think this is a beautiful story that also kind of turns everything on its head. Right, I mean, this is supposed to be a parable about praying right. Right, I mean this is supposed to be a parable about praying Right. And? And what happens in this parable about praying is is not us getting on our knees in church and saying something between just us and the creator ourselves? It's. It's not a prayer for you know, something spiritual and immaterial and otherworldly and ephemeral. Right, this woman goes to this person with power and demands justice and wins it, and that's how we pray without ceasing.
Liz Theoharis:Now, to me that puts this total different picture on what prayer is, different picture on what prayer is, what ritual is and what faith can be right.
Liz Theoharis:And it doesn't mean. I mean I am an ordained pastor in the Presbyterian church and I help lead, co-lead, a congregation that meets online, but I preach in a lot of, you know, in the box, in the walls, churches, and so I have no quarrel with the organized church. But what I love is in that story and in so many of the liturgies that are contained in this book and in so much of the social justice movement work that I have been honored to be a part of for decades now of my life. I love how it takes us out of those walls, how it takes us out of any particular formula that tells us that this is how we can be the right people or how we can get right with God, and it reminds us that, actually, that being with people who are pursuing their spiritual and material needs is the right place to be and is the place where the divine, where the spirit, can come and meet us and set us right on the journey towards a full life for everybody.
Shelly Shepherd:Heather, I saw your hand waving. Were you giving praise, oh?
Heather Drake:no, that was just exciting to me too. This idea of those are definitely things that are like big in our bones. In my own personal story, I didn't grow up in high church and so we didn't have a very organized or set liturgy, and it is something that, in the evolution of my spirituality, I came upon and I was enamored with it. I often think that if we're not mindful of what's happening when we come and we experience the other of some, whatever kind of wisdom, tradition we're in or whatever kind of spirituality, all of a sudden it's beautiful and big to us. And so liturgy was one of the paths of expansion for me, because I began to pray other people's prayers. I began to ask for justice in places where I didn't see injustice, but then I began to see how this creates oneness, how this creates such a bigger family and a bigger community in God, and then I began to be so wound up about it.
Heather Drake:That's one of the things that I collect are liturgical books, and I want to read them and I want to pray them, and it connects me to not only to God in ways that remind me of oneness, but it connects me to other, to brothers, to sisters, to siblings that are in different situations than I am, and then begins to shape the container that is my soul and in my prayers, and so I offer, with a lot of gratitude and grace, liturgies, and one of the things that I really appreciated about your upcoming book was the scope of the liturgies that you included, and I loved that.
Heather Drake:Very often I have found that liturgical books are sometimes very narrow streams, and so you need a whole bunch of them so that you can have a bigger sound, and so I really appreciated the curating that you offer in the book of offering prayers that remind us that we are one with the poor and that, with one hand, we offer bread and assistance to the poor, but then, on the other hand, we need to offer, um, whatever help we can to dismantle the systems that continue to keep people in oppression, and so I again I was hoping that we could have a conversation about the scope and how wide it is and how I am with you in prayers and hope that this will open people's mind or expand the idea that liturgy is for everyone and includes everyone.
Charon Hribar:Yeah, I think that was definitely part of the intention in creating this piece and a few things, this piece and a few things. One of being able to say, when you pray, you know someone else's prayers, like you're connecting with that community and you know becoming part of that community. You know, I think that was in the way the book is laid out. In the first five chapters we tell the stories as well of all the communities and then in offering a specific prayer or song or litany, but it's a way to you know, I think it is a way to both. You know ground that these, our prayers, don't come from nowhere, right, whether it be today or whether it be ancient communities, many of the prayers that we offer are prayers that come out of struggle, right, of communities that have, you know, struggled against you know, many injustices and you know they are a practice of, you know, creating something that holds that community, that strengthens our community, that connects us with, you know, the sacred and with God in that. And so, you know, I think it was really important to be able to share, like the stories of the communities and whether it be, you know, you know homeless encampments, thinking of taking a traditional ritual, you know, like something like communion, and, and it's not just practiced in the walls of a church. But you know, there's a story that talks about a pastor out of Alabama that you know took the communion ritual in and went into a homeless encampment and and thinking about, you know what does it do when we take that sacred practice, you know, into the community, into the lives of everyday people. And you know, and, and as Reverend Tani was offering this communion celebration, you know, one of the folks that was living there said this isn't for me, like I'm not worthy of this, but that shows how, when we kind of separate the church from the everyday lives of people and we may in the confines of that we don't make people feel worthy of, you know, of these practices that in the heart of them, a communion came out of a community of poor people right that were remembering the death of other poor people, and so to take that practice and take it back to where this, you know where this ritual comes from, is a way to, you know, remind ourselves that like where, why do we do these practices? You know, it isn't just about our personal relationship with Jesus or with God, but it is about our communal responsibility to take care of one another and to remember, like, where these practices come from. So you know it's a range from a practice like that to.
Charon Hribar:You know, folks that were movement leaders, that themselves grew up Jewish and you know had practiced things like the Seder, the Passover Seder, and you know didn't necessarily, like you know, would go through it every year, but like in their adulthood kind of came to a place of like actually really like taking that practice and taking it into a community of other folks that were organizing right for things like healthcare, for workers' rights and being like, oh, this story is like about liberation.
Charon Hribar:It's about, you know, being able to access freedom and ways that we're fighting for too. And all of a sudden, you know seeing, you know how powerful it was to take that ritual. That had kind of just been something that they did every year because they were kids and had to, and like, all of a sudden, reading these stories and being like that is the same, like the folks that were in Exodus were struggling against empire and struggling to, you know, meet their needs and to find liberation the way we are, and like being able to share their own stories and practices in the context of having this powerful practice of ritual right. And so, yeah, the book takes us through all kinds of stories like this and different faith traditions and different you know historical and contemporary ways that we reimagine and create new pieces. You know there's also new songs and new prayers that are meant to inspire folks to also continue to create new things for this moment as well.
Shelly Shepherd:Can I ask a question for each of you maybe to answer? I know it would probably be a really, really long dissertation worth of answer, because you've been at this, I think, liz, I read where you've been at this for with the marginalized. It's a call because we've had to face it ourselves. Yeah, is this how you all got started? Tell us a little bit about your story and, like I said, I know there's a lot of years there to share, but maybe a. I also hear that I don't need to tell my whole story.
Liz Theoharis:But I can make a couple of highlights. So I was raised in a family that was a movement family and my father was actually an atheist. But my mom was a very devoutout, faith-based activist, a leader involved in faith work and justice work all across the world. But my family growing up, my mom's side of the family, were survivors of the Armenian genocide, so a bunch of my mom's Christianity came out of her Armenian heritage and my mom was disabled but a fierce, very strong, very stubborn woman and all of that came to play.
Liz Theoharis:My father was the kid of undocumented immigrants who came searching for an American dream and found a nightmare andled with, you know, impoverishment and all kinds of injustices you know here. And actually my father's atheism was in part because of the strong judgment from the church on the kind of situation of his family and himself situation of his family and himself. And I've lived a long life of being kind of connected to many of these issues throughout. I have been unhoused, I have been without health care, worked all kinds of low wage jobs and I've also been able to, you know, get a PhD and land jobs that pay decently, and so it's like both a straddling of experiencing hardship, experiencing hard times, and economic situation that I've come from, but also kind of my spiritual journey through all of it.
Liz Theoharis:You know I often will say that I was sent to seminary from the movement and I joined the movement both out of economic but also spiritual necessity.
Liz Theoharis:I was looking for a church in a community and found that amongst poor and unhoused people both, some of this really noxious and really hurtful theology that was degrading and dehumanizing poor and low-income people, right, this kind of idea that poor people are sinners, not that poverty is a sin, but also so that is on a negative side, but also on a more positive side, the place where people go when in spiritual and material need so often are some of the only institutions that exist in some big cities, but also in small towns and rural areas where people are experiencing poverty and economic hardship, are our church institutions, our faith institutions. And so you know I was sent to seminary to both push back against some of the theological judgment but also to figure out what would it look like for our movement to actually learn from faith communities and faith institutions and also bring them along the way into, like a movement a movement so. So there's a lot there, and I could have told that story a lot more coherently.
Shelly Shepherd:No, that's. It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful tapestry and and I want to honor and give respect to Reverend Dr Liz Theo Harris what, what a journey that must have been for you to to navigate all of that that you just described and sit here with us today with not just one published book. You have three at least. Is this the fourth one?
Liz Theoharis:I think this is four, maybe five actually.
Shelly Shepherd:Okay, so, honoring you in all of that that you've done, not just for yourself but for others, it sounds like that you are uh, helping to shape, uh, um, a consciousness that, um, you know, maybe in america we're, we're losing or we don't have, there was, uh, and then I'll go back, we'll have you share um sharon too. There was a quote in the book. Our society has this common assumption that ritual and prayer simply maintain conventional social norms and prop up the status quo, and I feel like the work that you're doing is helping to dismantle that misunderstanding. You know, that common assumption, what you just named as these theological ditches that we get into that, you know, become a rut instead of become freedom, a voice of freedom. I feel like what I've read in your book is going to be a resource to help us figure out how to, you know, as a culture, move in a better, in a better direction to tell a better story.
Liz Theoharis:Awesome. Thank you so much for that. It's really helpful. Beautiful.
Charon Hribar:Sharon. Sure, yeah, jump in. You know I appreciated the framing of your podcast being the expansionist. You know I appreciated the framing of your podcast being the expansionist because I think that my journey in this work has really been that it's been an expansion of. You know what I understand my faith and you know my work to be a committed Christian to be.
Charon Hribar:I grew up just north of Pittsburgh in a small steel town and grew up in a Catholic church there and you know most of my family worked in the steel mill till I was about five and then the steel industry in this country really collapsed and so you know, saw large numbers of unemployment and you know the suffering that folks were going through in kind of the Rust Belt area of this country and you know, alongside that, you know the suffering that folks were going through in kind of the Rust Belt area of this country and you know, alongside that, you know we were part of a church and folks took care of each other and you know you practice community and a lot of folks came out of a labor history and so that was kind of you know all there. I also was a kid that often questioned everything I would. You know my mom, we had a whole recitation of prayers every night, but I would like sit there and make her break each one down of, like well, what does that really mean? Or like, why do we do this? You know, and that was just who I was. And so I found myself years later when, in college, being exposed to liberation theology, I ended up at a Catholic college, and I think that was a moment where it really came to life for me, like, oh, this is what this is all actually about, like that understanding, like the struggles that my community went through, struggles that communities around the world were going through, and that God was the God of the poor. That God, you know, wanted a world where there wasn't poverty and people suffering. And it ended up, not right away, but it ended up leading me to Union Theological Seminary and to the work that, you know, liz and others and myself helped to found with the Poverty Initiative and now the Cairo Center.
Charon Hribar:And you know it wasn't all immediate that this all made sense. But as I traveled around the country and got to meet others, like folks in Detroit that were, you know, auto workers, that had been, you know, displaced and seeing you know how the what had happened in Detroit, or whether it be being in West Virginia and folks fighting, you know, mountaintop removal there, or farm workers from Immokalee, florida, like, like it was like, oh, this is, you know, this isn't just happening. It's not my family's fault that this happened to us. You know that. You know it's not anyone's fault that they're, you know, going through these struggles. But there's something bigger happening here.
Charon Hribar:Right, there's and there's actually there's both something bigger happening here, but it's not the way it's supposed to be right, and being able to experience that, while also on a theological journey of going through seminary, but really doing that while in this movement work, where you know it, expanded my whole understanding of both what you know, who, what God wanted, what justice looked like and how do we get that kind of justice like of the role, that really being able to, you know, create communities that could both, like, as Heather you brought up from the book that you know, not only take care of each other in the moment, right, that we can, can meet each other's needs, but that we also have to work to change this society, right, that we are called by, you know, our faith, to change the society too.
Charon Hribar:And so yeah, I would say you know my own kind of background and then meeting so many other people you know that were doing something about it through this work made me understand, like what my call to this, this kind of faith and this kind of work meant let's honor and respect Dr Sharon Rabar as well.
Shelly Shepherd:Thank you for your work.
Heather Drake:We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend, and if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionistheologycom.
Shelly Shepherd:Was Union a place where your hearts met in a greater way, or did you already have this connection before arriving at Union?
Liz Theoharis:So that is where Sharon and I got to meet each other, at least in this world. And we met each other pretty shortly after Sharon showed up at Union. It was the same year that myself and a couple of other colleagues Willie Baptist, who works with us at the Cairo Center, and Paul Chapman, who is deceased now but who helped to found the Poverty Initiative which became the Cairo Center and I had been introduced to Union Theological Seminary. I mean, I knew about Union because of kind of liberation theology in the United States, but I had chosen Union because back in the late 1990s when I was organizing amongst unhoused families and welfare rights leaders and activists and other low-wage workers that were organizing, we had been welcomed to union time and time again for some of our events. And so we kind of we started the Cairo Center at Union because of that long legacy but also because of the different stories that myself and Sharon and a couple of others you know our own paths started to cross there.
Heather Drake:That's beautiful prayer, something that I love and am deeply committed to, and I love to offer it to people, not just that I will pray for you, but the idea that prayer is a living thing, that it is communion with God and nature and everyone, and it's not something that you do and then do not think about.
Heather Drake:It is, in fact, the way that we live a prayerful life and the intention toward that, and you had mentioned something, sharon, where you said that you reimagined something, and I think that one of the things that your book really does so beautifully and I would really like to talk about this for a moment is it allows us to reimagine what prayer could be, who it could include and how it would actually become the legs underneath us, to say that our prayer is not just talking or not just listening, but it becomes the fuel that gives us direction for our action. And so I wanted to ask who do you really see that the book we Pray Freedom is for? Who are the we? And if we were handing it out, if we were gifting it to someone, if we had read it, and who is it for? Who is the book for?
Charon Hribar:Yeah, I think that, just to say, I appreciate the framing and you know, there's a quote in the book that we lift up from Rabbi Joshua Abraham. Joshua Heschel that says that we need to. You know we pray with our feet. Joshua Heschel that says that we need to. You know we pray with our feet and with that, you know, I think it's this idea that prayer has so many forms and you know that it is calling us, you know, to march, to sing to. You know, express ourselves in all of these ways and in that, you know, I think it is for everyone, ourselves in all of these ways, and and in that, you know, I think it is for everyone. You know, this book, the we, is for all, of all of those that are looking to, to think in and in this moment, to be able to engage. You know, in this world, you know, like that, all around us, there's so much crisis and I think so many people are feeling in that, isolated. You know, like that, all around us there's so much crisis and and I think so many people are feeling in that isolated, um, you know, feeling overwhelmed and oftentimes, what do we do when we do that? Right, we many, many turn to prayer, right, um, and, and it's you know, you hear, oftentimes, if there is a crisis, someone will say I pray for you, but what does that mean?
Charon Hribar:So this, this book, is really an invitation to help people think about. What does what does it mean when I say I will pray for you, but what does that mean? So this book is really an invitation to help people think about what does it mean when I say I will pray for you? It could mean that I'm literally saying a prayer and talking personally with God, but it could also mean I'm coming to a meeting, I'm organizing a meeting where we're going to come together and share the different like crises that we're facing and think together about how do we do something about that. It could mean that we are deciding, you know, we're coming together in prayer and on a street corner and you know, lifting up our voices to say like it doesn't have to be this way, you know, and and saying that we can see a different and a better way that we can organize ourselves and be connected to one another.
Charon Hribar:And I think, especially, it's an invitation to you know to see prayer as something that is expansive, that is open, that is inviting, that is calling us all in and not something that is, you know, in some way way a doctrine that is isolating ourselves or excluding others from it. And so I think it, in a broad sense, it is this it is an invitation for us all to find our own way into it right, and so the different prayers that are there, it's kind of a saying you know, where do you, where do you see yourself, as one of my, our movement leaders say where do I get in as I fit in? You know, and you know it might be in one prayer one day and then in another day. It's something else, but it's you know you might find your way in and then continue to expand your journey into this much broader way of looking at, you know, prayer and spirituality as an act of justice.
Liz Theoharis:Beautiful Liz, who's the book for? Yeah, I'm trying to think of how to add to that right. I think the we in we Pray Freedom has many different levels. One is the we who have curated, have created the resources that are in this publication the 80 plus grassroots leaders, from unhoused organizers to low wage workers, to church women who are, you know, bringing the good news that it doesn't have to be this way, you know, to so many different settings. But then the we of we Pray Freedom is all of the communities that those 80-plus people also connect with, which brings us to the millions and the hundreds of millions right. And then the we of we Pray Freedom is anyone who yearns for a world that is more free than the one that we're living in.
Liz Theoharis:You know, I heard recently that something like 60% of those that are living in the US right now are not able to afford our basic kind of needs and necessities.
Liz Theoharis:I mean 60% of people in the richest country in human history not being able to afford to make ends meet. You know it means that the kind of least of these of the Bible are most of us right. And you know we get to travel around the country all the time we get to connect up with people in small towns and medium sized cities and huge metropolitan areas and rural communities, and and we hear over and over again about this desire to thrive and not just barely survive right, and this yearning to live full and abundant lives where everybody is in and nobody is out. And so I really think the kind of audience for is everybody, but particularly those who can see that our lives are limited both by the political but also religious structures of the day, but who also see that we all would benefit from living in community with each other in a different way, and see that the spirit and that faith can push us towards justice and freedom for everyone and abundance for all. That's beautiful.
Shelly Shepherd:Is this possible? Is this freedom and justice and peace, world peace. Is it possible in our lifetime and are we on the right track?
Liz Theoharis:I mean, I think the question about is it possible in our lifetime is a really important one. You know, I'm 49 years old and so I come from a people that don't pass away real early but also don't live necessarily the longest of lives, and so I don't know. I don't know what's possible in my lifetime. But I know that whatever seeds I plant in this lifetime can bloom in my kids and in the generations that come after, the generations that come after. I also know that, because people have been able to persist and to change and transform things in other really difficult times, that it's possible for us to change and transform things today. And so I wouldn't say it's not possible in my lifetime. But even if I don't see the deep transformation and abundance for all in mine, I have to hold out the hope and the belief that it is, you know, coming soon.
Liz Theoharis:And I think that's actually a really biblical idea um, kind of that the kingdom is here and still coming, um, or that um. You know, some of the work I've done, particularly around the bible, has been about kind of jubilee and sabbath and um, and kind of economic and like justice for everybody, right, and always people ask well, did that ever really happen, and there is evidence that in biblical times things were, changes happened and that people did live in Jubilee and that did practice it. But it also is a folks that have only really had really hard lives but who stand firm with the belief and understanding that we can actually make a difference and that we can actually kind of pray and fight for and make freedom and liberation a reality and justice a reality, and so I think that's the space that I come from.
Charon Hribar:I just wanted to share one other little piece there. I was thinking about one of the contributors that is in the book, jonathan Likes. He's a leader with the Black Youth Project 100. But you know, I've learned this lesson as well.
Charon Hribar:But I'm calling out him because of a song he wrote around it as well, but talking about working with indigenous leaders as well, and you know he was he with indigenous leaders as well, and you know he was. He was saying oh, we're, you know, we're doing this for our children and the next generation. And he was saying how, in working with indigenous leadership, they're like, well, you know we're, we're talking about 1000 generations to come, you know. And so this idea of you know it's not only is it possible, but I think it's a responsibility to, that is, you know it's not only is it possible, but I think it's a responsibility too, that is, you know, it's not only that we believe in the possibility, but it's also that, the responsibility that we have, and it's not just a question but it's actually we have to help usher this in. And you know, and in taking that in, you know Jonathan wrote this song and he said in a thousand generations.
Charon Hribar:we won't die In a thousand generations. We won't die In a thousand generations. We won't die In a thousand generations, we won't die.
Charon Hribar:But it's just this, you know, if we live into that, right that is, it changes the question, right? It changes how we even, you know, see our when we wake up every day. It's not just that, you know. Well, it seems like things are insurmountable. Again, going back to indigenous folks that have seen so much destruction and death of their communities because of you know what's happening, of how they've been treated, but their responsibility to say we have a calling and to take care of this earth, to take care of our communities, and we will keep passing that on.
Heather Drake:That's helpful. Keep passing that on. That's helpful, I wanted to add and I'm just a person here who is on a podcast talking to authors about their book but I really would love for people to realize that the book is not just for church leaders and people who use liturgy. The book is for everyone. The book is for if your church is not going to use that liturgy, then use it when you gather together with your friends or when you have something to offer in a space, and so I really appreciated not just the curation of it but the stories that you told that are inspiring, but then also opened my imagination to say you know, where are the liturgies that I'm offering?
Heather Drake:If we constantly wait for our ancestors to offer us a question or an answer to the question that our children have, then I think that we are neglectful of or derelict in our duties of saying that we are morally responsible to offer a bigger space in prayer, in community and in making a space for awareness, for other people to see pain and to be bearers of the grief and the burden.
Heather Drake:One of the things that I think that, as a follower of Jesus, that we're asked to do is bear each other's burdens. And how will you bear the burden of your brother if you do not even know his name, if you do not even have community with him? And I just loved the opportunity that this book kind of gave, like, even if you think somebody should do it, maybe buy it for your you, it for your leader, but also buy it for your neighbor and start something and offer these beautiful outside the box, beautiful liturgies, and so again, that's my opinion. But, yeah, put on your Christmas list. There's beautiful things. People love books at Christmas At least they think they should and offer it to folks, to leadership. Everybody's got a podcast nowadays so they could all have you on their book.
Charon Hribar:Yeah, do a book club you can. You know, I think that it's really. It is really written in a way that you can read a story together, you can share the liturgy, and then, you know, there are questions at the end of each section that invite you to think about and reflect on. You know what's my story? How would this look like in my community? So we do, really, you know, while I think individuals can use it in that personal reflection way, it's also a great way to think about ways that we can continue to build community of where we are and take it into the communities that we're already a part of.
Charon Hribar:One other piece I'll share is that, because there are so many songs and kind of visual components that you can't fully express in a written book, we are launching a companion website on September 1st. It is actually printed in the book, the weprayfreedomorg, but in the book, as you're reading, there's a little icon that says hey, look at me. Um, there's a, there's a website that you can go to and get more resources. So, um, that will also be available for folks as you've purchased the book. Um, we pray freedomorg will be uh, we'll have music videos and other videos and resources available um for ways that you can use the book and learn the songs and sing them and bring them into your communities.
Shelly Shepherd:So just a couple of things before we wrap up here. I'd like to read the Immigrant Creed. I don't know if the two of you can pull that up, but I thought it might be interesting if we each took a section and read that. So maybe look on your devices and grab the immigrant creed that's in the book and we'll close with that.
Shelly Shepherd:But I also wanted to say I think what I'm also hearing here today, and possibly what the book will become, is this notion that freedom, the freedom church, is this network of people and we didn't even really know the freedom church existed until maybe you wrote the book or we saw the poor people's campaign or or something like that. But in essence, the Freedom Church has been being formed for quite a long while, and so maybe part of the invitation is that oh okay, well, I don't go to church anywhere, I'm just going to join the ranks of Freedom Church and help to expand the idea of justice, freedom and peace in our world. So I wanted to add that before we sign off today and maybe read this creed together, does everybody have a copy now?
Charon Hribar:I do. And just to say that the Freedom Church of the Poor does meet virtually at 6 pm eastern time on sundays, uh, and there's a beautiful community from around the country that joins each week.
Shelly Shepherd:Excellent offers, different, you know, um reflections and, uh, spiritual practices together great thank you for that welcome to join yeah, why don't the two of you start us off and then um heather you, you go after them and then I'll be the fourth voice, kind of mirroring some of the work in the book, even though it's not set up this way. We'll just take turns.
Liz Theoharis:I can start. I'm going to do it in English, but it's also in Spanish in the book the Immigrant Creed. We believe in God, the Father and Mother, creator of the heavens and the earth, creator of peoples and cultures, languages and races. We believe in God who defends the rights of women and children, of day laborers on street corners, of the poor and of immigrants, a God who breaks down borders, differences and great powers.
Charon Hribar:The God who guided his people in exile and in the Exodus. The God of Joseph in Egypt, of Daniel in Babylon, of Hagar in the desert. The God of foreigners and immigrants, who is at our side while we cross deserts, seas and rivers like the Rio Bravo and jungles like the Darien. The God who protects us in the midst of darkness and when we sleep in the streets of unknown towns. The God of the prophets, reformers, martyrs of the faith and the anonymous saints of yesterday and today. The God in whom Augustine Teresa of Avila and Martin Luther believed and trusted, and Martin Luther believed and trusted. The same one who inspired Berta Carcer, minerva Marbel, cecilia Mujunca.
Heather Drake:Mariana de Jesus de Padres, Harriet Tubman, Cesar Chavez and Oscar Romero. We believe in Jesus Christ, his son, a displaced Palestinian Jew, born far from his people and his home, who, like many of us, fled his country with his parents when his life was in danger and, upon his return, had to suffer the oppression of the tyrant Pontius Pilate, the servant of a foreign power. He was persecuted, beaten, tortured and finally unjustly accused and condemned to death. But on the third day, this rejected Jesus rose from the dead, not as a foreigner, but to offer us citizenship in his kingdom, giving us hope for new life. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the eternal immigrant of the kingdom of God among us, who speaks all languages, lives in all countries and unites all races, who sustains us every day, who gives us strength not to give up and to get up when we fall.
Shelly Shepherd:We believe in the church as a safe home for all foreigners and immigrants, where we have found support, refuge and solace, a church where everyone speaks the same language, that of love, and has the same purpose peace and justice. We believe that the communion of saints begins when we accept the diversity of the saints. We believe in forgiveness, which makes us equal, and in reconciliation, which identifies us much more than a race, language or nationality.
Liz Theoharis:We believe in the resurrection as the time of the great fiesta when we will be united as a people, celebrating our unity in diversity. We believe in eternal life beyond this world, where no one will be an immigrant, but we will all be citizens of the kingdom of God that will have no end.
Heather Drake:Amen, it was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheologycom.