The Expansionist Podcast
Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake invite you to listen in on a continuing conversation about expanding spirituality, the Divine Feminine, and the transforming impact of living attuned to Wisdom, Spirit and Love.
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The Expansionist Podcast
Friendship Beyond Death: Mary Magdalene's Call
Mary Magdalene beckons us beyond the twelve verses that mention her in scripture, inviting us into a profound reimagining of what it means to witness the divine. Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake explore this sacred friendship during Mary's feast week, diving into the transformative power of seeing resurrection through feminine eyes.
What makes Mary's witness unique? The hosts suggest that witnessing isn't merely observing or repeating stories—it's embodying presence in vulnerability and mutual care. "If I am a witness to someone's life," Heather explains, "it's not that I am bossing them or repeating a story. I am embodying my own presence." This reframes Jesus's commission to Mary as an invitation into intimate friendship where humanity is fully embraced, needs are tended to, and love flows freely between companions.
The conversation takes an unexpected turn when the hosts propose a powerful possibility: perhaps in the garden, Mary called to Jesus first. What if her longing and connection transcended death itself, and his response—"Mary"—was simply answering her call? This perspective transforms the resurrection narrative from a one-sided miracle to a testament of love's power to bridge even death's chasm. Jesus's instruction not to cling to him becomes not rejection but invitation to transcendence—moving beyond limited forms into expansive understanding.
Mary Magdalene likely walked a wisdom path even before meeting Jesus, possessing inner knowing that allowed her to grasp what others missed. While the disciples sought political revolution, Mary understood Jesus's teaching that "the kingdom is within." Their unified vision created a friendship that modeled the very love they sought to share with the world. Perhaps this is why, out of all his followers, Jesus commissioned Mary specifically to first proclaim the resurrection—because she alone truly understood its meaning.
Ready to explore Mary's expansive path of wisdom? Join our community where we're reimagining spiritual friendship that honors both our humanity and transcendent potential. Visit expansionisttheology.com to continue the journey of pouring out love generously in a world hungry for connection.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit and love.
Speaker 2:Good afternoon, heather Drake, welcome Good afternoon.
Speaker 1:Shelley Shepard, I'm glad to be here with you.
Speaker 2:This is round two for us. Today it's so fun just to be in the space with you to record and to imagine and to expand and to invite others into that way of knowing as well.
Speaker 1:So I'm looking forward to this conversation forward to this conversation and I'm excited that we're actually in this present moment during a feast week of Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 1:So I know there's, you know, just in the air. The universe, the world creation is reminding us that the presence of love and of friendship and companionship and nurture is with us, and we see this in the witness of Mary Magdalene. And so we're going to talk about some of that today, about what we know, about what the Spirit is telling us and about what we can imagine about this incredible woman who represents a path of transcendence and a way to embody our feminine goodness and the feminine power and be able to offer it to the world.
Speaker 2:And this is not a new discussion for us, no, and Mary Magdalene is not a new path to us. I mean, you have shared in other podcasts that you've been following Mary since you were little. Talk to us about that for a second. What was that first introduction? I know a few weeks ago we talked about you putting Mary, the figurine of Mary from the flannel board, in your possession, and so she was very near and dear to you because you wanted the story of Mary told accurately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I went for the record for that to be the reason that I broke the rule. And so, again, I was about five years old. I knew things didn't belong to me. I knew that stealing was not okay, Things I didn't. I'd never taken anything else and you know, I didn't take anything after that.
Speaker 1:But when I first heard the story of Mary and Jesus, the friendship that was there, I could see myself there. That was this beautiful glimmer for me. I could also be that kind of friend to Jesus. I also could offer myself and I saw myself in a place to be able to say that is not only relatable, but that is the part of the story that I want to play. That is not only relatable, but that is the part of the story that I want to play. I want to be the person who hears the message, who really hears the message, who cares for this Christ and then who is not only herself liberated but liberates others with the message. And so, as a tiny little person, I also was hearing the story as it was being told and, like before first grade, I was able to go.
Speaker 1:They're telling it wrong, I know they're telling it wrong, and when I was told that somebody else was going to tell the story, I simply took Mary out. You took Mary into your own hands as it were.
Speaker 2:I did because I did not want the story told incorrectly, so judge me, if you will, in were I did, because I did not want the story told incorrectly.
Speaker 1:So judge me, if you will, in how I deal with things that I don't want.
Speaker 2:That idea is beautiful.
Speaker 1:But my point is this hopefully that all of us have heard the story and go that's not the way it happened.
Speaker 2:That can't be all there is, and Mary Magdalene was probably one of the first women in scripture that was told to us as little children, right? Mary, the mother of Jesus, mary Magdalene, miriam, like all the Marys like we got to hear all the Marys Like we should have really, really, really been confused from the very beginning. There was something distinct about Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene in these stories that we would hear over and over and over. Growing up. That created a foundation on which we stood. So it's not like we're just, oh, this is a trending topic on social media and it's oh, it's her feast week. No, it is. It's a path. It has been a path in our lives. There just hasn't been enough conversation about that friendship, right.
Speaker 1:And let's talk about that, because as much as you say that we would have heard the story over and over again, we have, but not to the same idea that Jesus offers, that we should hear that story, because Jesus himself instructs everywhere that my story and says now you go and tell and with your unique perspective, with your unique witnessing, you go and tell the brothers what you have seen.
Speaker 2:You go and tell the brothers what you have seen and let's park right there Unique perspective and unique witnessing. Unique, unique perspective and witnessing what made her unique to go and tell what did he know about her that he sent her to go and tell. What was unique about that Was her gospel already written? Had somebody been scrolling like not scrolling on their phone but actually scrolling on the papyrus this story that was unfolding? And he saw it in her and he said go and tell them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you say something like a unique witness, to me the witness is. It's not the way that the church told me what a witness was. That was you tell the Jesus story to people who would listen to you, or who didn't want to listen.
Speaker 1:You had to just tell the story over and over again, and I don't believe that is at all what was meant. To witness something is not only to observe it, but to be present in it. If I am a witness to someone's life, it's not that I am bossing them or repeating, narrating a story. I am embodying my own presence in there. So I think that when Jesus says, go and be my witness, when he keeps asking, inviting people, do you want to be my witness? Do you want to embody the story? Do you want to stand so close to me that you will see the perspiration and know that I'll need a drink? And it's a vulnerability that Jesus offers. Even you and I were talking earlier about the woman at the well and Jesus says to her I need a drink. And Jesus says to her I need a drink.
Speaker 1:And I think that there's just this intentional vulnerability with going. Will you recognize my own humanity, will you recognize my weakness? And what will you do to heal that, to solve it, to nurture it? And so the invitation into witnessing is an invitation into friendship, but it's also an invitation into the real humanity, where we're tasting it, where we're smelling it, where we're tending to each other's needs, where we're making opportunities for each other, where we're caring for our bodies, where we're caring for our stories. And that is a unique perspective. She has a perspective being so close to Jesus all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's talk about that friendship and what maybe preceded it or what was included in it. What was around that friendship and why was Mary the one that he called her name? I can imagine he called others too. I don't think he just called Mary Magdalene. But what caused that? What prompted him? What did he see in her? What was that inner witness that he saw?
Speaker 1:Well, I want to turn the story a little bit on its head and ask something. What if he didn't call her first? What if he called her because she was calling him?
Speaker 2:what if standing?
Speaker 1:in the garden. He's beyond the, he's not in this present world that we can see, that she knew of. There wasn't an already resurrection? And what if this longing and this connection and this friendship that she had with him, what if it passed the grave? And what if her calling to him, what if his response in saying mary, is a response to her asking him first, oh, absolutely, she was calling to him, and then he was saying I'm here, I know you've called, I'm here.
Speaker 1:And so this, this really deep heart, entwined, fellowship, conversation, communion, friendship, all of those things, and it would be such joy if you thought that somebody wasn't in this present moment for you to see them, and I imagine, a lot of other feelings too. And so, as she turns around and reaches for him and he offers instruction, don't cling to the form. I think is a path to transcendence. Don't cling to the form of the Jesus that you were taught or you were first told about, of the Jesus that you were taught or you were first told about. Don't cling to the form, but recognize that the Christ is transcendent and is calling us all to this life, that we expand our not only storytelling but our imagining and our realization of this perfect icon and this understanding of who God is? Are you saying that?
Speaker 2:you know. Just to back up a little bit, are you saying that she had this longing to be seen, known and understood? I'll put it that way you didn't use those exact words, but she had this longing to be seen, known and understood. I'll put it that way you didn't use those exact words, but she had this longing to be seen, known and understood. And he called to her in death or he called to her in life. He was in the garden. I lost you there for a second.
Speaker 1:Well, in my imagination, I think she wants more than to be seen, to be heard and to be known. I think she already was. She had those things, but this flesh, part of Jesus who was buried, that threshold of I am not with you anymore because death has separated us. Death has separated us so, in the way that I imagine it, that that doesn't really stop her. If anyone has really lost someone they love, death does not stop you from talking to that person. You still have conversations with them, you still imagine them to be there and I am, I fully believe that she would have been calling, been asking, you know, been saying this is overwhelming or this is not how I thought it was going to end.
Speaker 1:This is not you know where it was, and I mean, maybe Jesus, maybe she was just quiet and Jesus called out to her Mary, but that doesn't sound like the whole conversation. It sounds like it was probably a big conversation with her own grief in the garden, with her own rituals of anointing, with her own disbelief at how this happened, with her own pain and separation from this person that she was one with. I think that she had been calling him and I think that through that veil when the spirit resurrected, the same spirit that lives in Christ, lives in us, that there is something beyond the grave, beyond death, that there are ties, that there are connections that are greater than that. And I believe that his response in Mary was as an answer to the question that she had been asking.
Speaker 2:It's fascinating to hear you describe it this way, but it would be even more fascinating to hear you preach an Easter story with that in mind. So let's linger at this point of transcendence and this knowing perhaps she had done the inner work to get there, maybe he recognized that, he noticed it before he even met her. Like I don't know how long they knew each other right, like we don't have that information. But I think, pre-meeting Jesus, she would have had a wisdom experience, she would have had some kind of Gnostic path that she was following, she would have meditated, she would have been involved in some kind of else and other people saw it as dangerous or saw her as suspicious or dangerous, like who is this woman and why is she acting this way? Or why is she doing these things? Or whoever was watching her to interpret what she was doing had some other kind of lens on right, some kind of judgmental lens that you talked about or some kind of accusatory lens that they didn't know her, they didn't know this inner work that Mary Magdalene had already been doing. And then here comes Jesus, fully, knowing her Fully, knowing her as beloved already, and invites her into this dance with him, into this friendship into this companionship, where she has full anointing commissioned to her, starting with him. Let's break this jar and pour it all.
Speaker 2:Wow, I wish we could just teach that every week. I wish we could talk. Teach that every week. I wish we could talk about it every week. Some of it is our imagination, holy imagination. Some of what I said is historical fact. Some is these two were humans. They were friends.
Speaker 1:We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend, and if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionistheologycom. We do ourselves a disservice if we don't use our power to reimagine a story I mean, if you just read the text, it's flat, yeah story so that we also recognize that this deep friendship that they have is a call for all of us to find or to nurture or to offer deep friendships where we are able to say we will love who you love, we will care for who you care for. I mean, they're that beautiful um portion of scripture. People use it a lot in weddings, where it's this woman who speaks to another woman and says where you go, I will go, your people will be my people Correct, yes and your God will be my God. This understanding that you have of God is mine.
Speaker 1:I see that kind of commitment, generosity being offered, not just between two people, but Mary is offering that to Jesus, jesus is offering that to Mary and then, in turn, it's offered to all of us to be able to say what is it like for us to know true friendship, for us to be able to follow the way of Jesus and recognize that? Jesus said everywhere that my story is told, her story is told. Well, even the gospel of Mary doesn't give us enough information to be satisfied that that's the whole story. Part of it is not there, but again, we can, that's okay. What we know is the Spirit, and I remind all of us that when Jesus said, after he was leaving to his friends, he said I'm going to ask the Father and I'm going to ask that you receive the Spirit and the Spirit will be your teacher, full stop.
Speaker 1:Now I believe the scriptures are beautiful, beautiful, but they are merely witnesses, they are merely a telling of this is what happened. From this one particular advantage point, from this one particular remembering. In fact, there are other portions of the scripture that says if everything that jesus said and did was written, the world would not be able to contain the books. So somebody has questioned me before and said you know, I think that you're out of bounds, oh, really, yes, in fact, I don't know if you can, it is difficult to believe, but somebody has said to me that was out of bounds and I said that was just one of the books that we have never read yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That does not mean that it didn't happen. And just because you said it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't happen. You know, this idea of it's not intended the scripture to be a literal, very narrow path. It's a way of saying what is it like to follow spirit, what is it like to love Jesus? And in loving Jesus you begin to love the world, you begin to love the whole world, you begin to love his friends, who are not nice to you and who don't care about what you have to say, and yet she loves.
Speaker 2:I think this is the whole point of Mary Magdalene, right? Well, let's say it, it's the whole point is love poured out. The expensive ointment or fragrance or perfume that Judas went bonkers about is the beginning of of the story, but the real point of the story was the love that was poured towards him.
Speaker 1:And so if you were telling me what is the point of the story, it's exactly what you said. It is not that people love Jesus because Jesus is very lovable. I mean the stories of. I mean that's easy, but can we love Jesus's friend named Judas?
Speaker 2:Sure Can we yeah.
Speaker 1:We have paths for that, yeah, but I think that's the point in that loving each other well, even when we do terrible things to each other. And now I'm not talking about staying in harm's way, I'm not talking about staying in harm's way, I'm not talking about that kind of thing but being able to say that we can embrace our full humanity, that we can find ways to meet at the table, even when you know people have betrayed, people have harmed, people have hurt. That there is a place of redemption and it's in the friendship and in the love of Christ.
Speaker 2:I think this is one of the critical points too with Mary Magdalene in the friendship piece is that perhaps she understood that what Jesus was intending when he said the kingdom was within and the boys were looking for empire, you know, to overtake and overthrow, like the atrocities and the injustices that were happening in their day. But somehow Mary was able to connect with this teaching that Jesus was demonstrating as she followed right, as the friendship unfolded, or as it became more evident to the two of them that there was a unified mission here. To see with the eye of the heart, right, like somehow they both got it. And even though he tried to maybe explain to the boys and to the men, this is the way Mary has chosen, the more excellent way.
Speaker 1:And it will not be taken from her.
Speaker 2:And it will not be taken from her Right. And so when I can imagine when he says to her go and tell, go and tell my brothers, I think, as maybe the nation translation says it, go and tell my brothers. He was inviting her to go and tell the story the way she understood it the empire is not going to happen. That love is poured out, that love is stronger than death, that we are in this together. No, I'm not here to make up a story to you, peter. No, I'm not here, you know, to tell something that hasn't been told to me. He has invited me to go and tell you this.
Speaker 2:This is the story, and somehow that, that collaborative mission that the two of them understood and felt to me, was the point. Not the Bible, not the resurrection, not, you know, all y'all need to be saved or you're going straight to hell. That was not it. And yet for millennia we have communicated it as a different story. So I'm with you we need a better story, we need to tell the story in a better way and, I think, through the eyes of friendship it's a beautiful way.
Speaker 1:And I think that the act of telling the story, telling her story, what she saw, I mean, if you think about it, jesus commissions her as the apostle, but why? Because he's going to show up in the locked room anyway. It wasn't like in her telling. They believed and they were waiting for him. They were shocked, he commissioned her.
Speaker 2:He wanted it told by her.
Speaker 1:Exactly. It is my particular wish that you would be the one to tell the story. You go talk of the resurrection first, they'll talk about it later, but you tell the story first. The way that we first hear the story is really important. We're the first witness and we're the witness many people see of a friendship with God, of a path that is different, of love that is nonviolent and that is opening and that is welcoming to all. We are those witnesses, or at least we're supposed to be. So we're inviting everyone to be a witness, a more excellent more intentional, more loving witness and to tell a better story.
Speaker 2:Even though it's only 12 verses in Second Testament that speaks of her, I believe that moment in the garden, when he comes alive to her, in whatever form he chose to come alive, the story is the story of love, is the story of I'm here, I'm here with you, I'm still here with you. I've never been separated, I will never be separated. But in these 12 verses we don't have the full story. And so, in this week of honoring Mary Magdalene, I believe the story continues to expand through individuals like us and other circles of women who who see this friendship as the way he wanted love to be poured into the world.
Speaker 2:I just think, whether it's her feast week as it is this week, or next week, when her feast week will no longer be celebrated, there is, I believe, heather, that we are in a a timely season of recognizing that the feminine, the divine feminine spirit is, is calling us to, to learn not just to tell this story but to apply, and I think that's where the queen of love comes into play. Is that this application of how it gets lived out? Just to say that we love Judas, but then we see Judas on the street and we turn and go the other direction. But if we apply the anointing, if we apply Mary Magdalene's way of thinking, that ritual that's poured out from the heart, from the center, from the eye of the heart of who she is, there's a different application, and that's what excites me for the next at least decade. Okay, we'll start with tomorrow, when this beautiful, expansive love of Mary Magdalene is poured into the hands of everyone. And so it is, and so it shall be.
Speaker 1:It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheologycom.