The Expansionist Podcast

The Mystics Would Like A Word:Shannon Evans Joins Us.

• Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake • Season 2 • Episode 5

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Its a great, great day here and we are just thrilled to share the mic with Shannon Evans. In her latest book, "The Mystics Would Like A Word," Shannon highlights the profound legacy of women mystics like Marjorie Kemp, Catherine of Siena, and Teresa of Avila who trusted their own souls despite living in deeply patriarchal contexts. Their witness offers guidance for contemporary spiritual seekers navigating questions of institutional belonging and spiritual authenticity. 

Perhaps most powerfully, Shannon compassionately addresses those facing criticisms for expanding their spiritual horizons. Reminding us of Jesus's teaching that "the kingdom of God is within you," she validates our capacity to trust inner spiritual guidance. This isn't about the idea of rejecting external wisdom but recognizing that discerning truth is part of our spiritual birthright—we were created with an inner compass worthy of trust, the Holy Spirit.

Ready to explore feminine spirituality and mystical wisdom? Buy THE MYSTICS WOULD LIKE A WORD from your favorite local bookstore, and be inspired. 

You may also be interested in buying Shannons other books Rewilding Motherhood and Feminist Prayers For My Daughter. 

You can also find more information about Shannon Evans here https://www.shannonkevans.com/

You can also read other brilliant things Shannon is writing by subscribing to her Substack https://shannonkevans.substack.com/

If you were interested in what you heard us talk about today you can connect with our community at expansionisttheology.com where we continue expanding our understanding of the divine beyond historic limitations.

Heather Drake:

Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit and love. Good afternoon, shelley Shepard. I'm so glad to be in the podcast studio with you and with our friend Shannon Evans. Yes, so much, thank you. We are so excited to be able to talk about some of the beauty of the words that she has created and the invitation into a spirituality that is really inclusive and, I think, full of spirit and so welcome with me, shannon Evans and Shelley Shepard. I'm so excited that the women are here. The Council of Rests have begun and we are starting.

Shelly Shepherd:

Here we are. Here we are. Welcome, shannon, it's great to be with you. Good to see you, heather.

Shannon Evans:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited for this conversation. You guys are like-hearted spirits for sure.

Heather Drake:

I wanted to read from the beginning of one of the books that you've written Feminist Prayers for my Daughter, and I wanted to read the prayer for the feminine imaging of God. I thought that was a great place for us to start. Oh, face of the divine feminine. My daughter bears the imago dio, the image of God, in her body and femininity, and yet it is rare for her to see that represented in sacred spaces. How can she believe in her own imago dio when she has been stifled, subdued in our collective religious imagination? And so I pray.

Heather Drake:

I pray for a great awakening to the divine feminine. I pray for artists to create from it, I pray for pastors to preach on it, I pray for liturgists to include it, I pray for activists to draw strength from it, and I pray for my daughter to delight in it. Do a new thing within the hearts of the people of God. Crack us open, give us freer imaginations, expand our souls to embrace you in the feminine, after so long in the masculine, parts of us will be healed, parts of us will be challenged. Let us be unafraid to be changed. And when my daughter walks into a place of worship, let it be with her head held high in certainty in her bones, knowing that the essence of who she reveals to the world is the truth of the sacred feminine. Amen. I love that prayer.

Heather Drake:

I share it with people, and then, as a church pastor, it's one of the things that I love to share with our congregation as well and remind them that this is a gift. At the end of the podcast or as we end, I also want to read a prayer that you've written for aging, and one of the things that I absolutely adore about this book. There's many things I like that you use the names of God different ones every time. I think that was so creative and so expansive and beautiful. But the idea that I am also using this book and I don't think I'm the only one not just prayers for my daughter, not just prayer for the daughters that we have just in the general population, but in reparenting myself, I don't have a mom necessarily to pray those things for me, but to say I can pray this over my own self is such a gift to be able to have those words, and so I'm grateful for your stance on including those prayers and, yeah, a real gift to the world.

Shannon Evans:

Thank you so much. Yeah, that actually kind of surprised me as I was writing them, because I really did intend for it to be a book of prayers for my daughter. And the further I mean it didn't take me long, but the further I got into it, the more I realized, oh, this is equally as much writing prayers for myself. You know, like just I mean, I am lucky to have a mother who is amazing and does pray those kinds of prayers for me. But you know, like, no matter what kind of parents we had, like we all have that work to do with our inner child, and especially when we've been in religious spaces that have been unhealthy, it's like gosh, we've got to do better for that inner child so that we can do better for the rest of the world too. And so, yeah, it was a. I think it was like a healing journey for me to undertake, as I kind of realized that it was much more than just a book of prayers for my daughter, although it is that too.

Heather Drake:

One of the things that, when you're talking, comes to mind is this idea of a very thin place to be able to say here I am in this actual matter of making a prayer or designing a prayer for a daughter that I see in the flesh, and then to be able to go oh, but I'm also praying as a spiritual mother, I'm also praying as a woman now, but as a woman also in the future and in agreement with the women in the past, and to get to that place of going. It feels very eternal, it feels very sacred, and I'm wondering how you felt confidence, or who gave you permission to start hearing that voice, and maybe how you learned or attuned to the voice of the divine feminine.

Shannon Evans:

Yeah, that was a whopper of a journey for me too. I mean, I didn't necessarily see it coming and it was a process of a couple of years, but really what started it was kind of I was cognitively aware of the harm of patriarchy in churches, but there, but once it started actually becoming personal in my life and I write about that a little bit in the mystics would like a word when I actually, you know, was had words taken away from me, or I had platform taken away, or I, um, I'm Catholic and so even I think it was about 2018, like a new report came out about sexual abuse, clergy abuse, and that was kind of happening at the same time as the patriarchy was harming my personal life. And that was just. It really kind of reshifted what I needed from God and I think at different points in our lives, you know, different presentations of God are what we need at the time, and so you know, there, certainly, like the fatherhood of God can be really healthy and really important for people, and it has been for me.

Shannon Evans:

But at that point it was like I needed a divine mother, like I didn't really have a Christian imagination for that, like I had heard that spoken of in non-Christian context and I was kind of intrigued but also kind of felt like I didn't have permission.

Shannon Evans:

I love that you use that word but I think, really because I'm Catholic, mary gave me an entryway into the divine feminine and that was like a fascinating on-ramp, because it becomes so muddled of, like, are we talking about the historical Mary?

Shannon Evans:

Are we talking now about, like a feminine image of God that we basically have named Mary? You know, and I'm honestly, I'm just fascinated with that question and I think it's such a beautiful similarity, honestly, to when we talk about Jesus's divinity and humanity and like, but kind of with the and I'm not saying that they're the same, because obviously they're not the same, but like having a, having imagery, having art, having something to hold on to, for me made it much more real. So I started out with, like, this newfound, like urge to to know Mary and to really let her mother, me and unintentionally I found that really translate very easily to imaging a God who is maternal, who cares for me, who who nourishes me in a more feminine way than the God that I had been raised. So that's a long answer to your question, but I do also want to shout out Joyce Rupp. Have either of you read Joyce Rupp's work? I have not.

Shelly Shepherd:

No, I have not.

Shannon Evans:

Okay, so Joyce Rupp it was the one who gave me permission to address God in other, in ways that my imagination took hold of. So she has one book called Prayers to Sophia, and that was one of the earliest ones that I that I had read. That really gave me language for a divine feminine. And then she has a book called Fragments of your Ancient Name and it's 365 devotions and it's each one addresses God in a creative and an individual way. So that's where I got the idea. So I always have to tell people with the feminist prayers, like she was the OG and I know her. Actually I have the, I have the privilege of knowing her because she lives, um, in my state. So we've met up a few times and, um, yeah, I just respect her very much. She's um getting on up in years and she's a Catholic sister who is just um, just one of us. You know, one of the one of the like wanting to see a freer imagination for spirituality.

Heather Drake:

So anyways, I love her. One of the things that Shelly and I have, in our conversations, discovered about ourselves is that since we were very little girls, we have had moments of divine connection with the Spirit and in that beautiful thing that sometimes is unnamed or uncategorized, it drew us into a following or a furthering of our faith, even though other things didn't always add up or didn't hold up to the test of time. But that understanding that since a little girl we've heard a voice or we've heard a sound or the spirit calling us and then through different authors offering little bits of things, it's been almost I don't want to say like a breadcrumb, but like a trail finding beautiful things, and we both came to a place where we kind of converged around the Mary Magdalene and I have so much affection and understanding for this. But it has also been for us not a a two month journey. This has been like a long time of unraveling and then a practice of listening to a different sound.

Shelly Shepherd:

You. I want to go to a couple of things in the mystics would like a word, uh, shannon, and there's a quote that you said. Um, it's in the feminist chapter, but you quote I knew what the spirit felt like in my body. I don't know if you remember that exact sentence or piece of writing, but could you talk to us a little bit about that piece, because I think there's a lot of, maybe, misunderstanding about the feminine spirit and how she moves in and through the world and even in our own lives and in our own bodies. I just thought maybe we could sit for a few minutes and hear your thoughts about how that felt for you.

Shannon Evans:

It's a great question and I don't actually remember the context necessarily of writing that.

Shannon Evans:

But that is something that, again, like Heather, you were saying, with these things aren't, these things don't take root in you in a month or two, it's like a long process. You know, it's like a long process, years, and for me that kind of accepting or believing that and some continuity between my physical existence and my spiritual life, that those weren't compartmentalized things, compartmentalized things and so kind of um, you know, between that and honestly, having some great therapists and spiritual directors, I've really kind of been challenged to notice and ask myself like oh, this, you know you're feeling something. Where do you feel that in your body? Whether it's discomfort or anxiety, you know so like those things have a certain feel, or whether it's just that sense of knowing, like that bodily knowing of confirmation that something is true, that you have just heard something deeply, deeply true.

Shannon Evans:

I think of when I read Sue Monk Kids, the Dance of the Dissident Daughter, and how like I just felt that in my body like this is true, and I've never heard anybody say these things before, and it felt so true. It's a hard thing to try to explain. You're nodding your head, so I know that, you know. Can I go back?

Shelly Shepherd:

and maybe I could have shaped the context of that question a little bit, but I think you were on a mission trip in Juarez and you had this like complete aversion to what you thought this mission trip was going to be like.

Shannon Evans:

Okay, yes, I do remember that.

Shelly Shepherd:

And then in your body, your body was telling you, okay, this is not the norm, this is not how how the witness of Christ, or the spirit of God, or the spirit, the feminine spirit, uh, uh, feels. And so, yeah, I was curious about, about that piece. Yes, okay, yes, I would, I do remember that.

Shannon Evans:

Um, yeah, I was curious about that piece.

Shannon Evans:

Yes, okay, yes, I do remember that.

Shannon Evans:

Yeah, so for me, it was like the ways that I had experienced and that context was specifically right evangelizing of like sharing the good news by, you know, talking to random strangers or giving out tracks, or we would even like perform dances in the public squares, like I don't I, I don't want to be critical of anything, but I don't really know how that translated Um, for me, that was a very new territory and not how I had experienced God at all.

Shannon Evans:

Um, I had very much come from a experience where God is in acts of mercy and people, and I have felt that confirmation inside of me of like this is love, this is justice, you know, and I had been able to identify those things as feeling God in my body of like, yes, this is how humans are meant to live, when we are, you know, extending mercy, working for justice, like practicing solidarity, or just, you know, in the, in the quiet spaces of nature, or journaling in my room, and feeling like just this tender gentleness, like just this tender gentleness, and what I was experiencing with this new church and this way of evangelizing, that it was very emphatically enforced as the only right way.

Shannon Evans:

And my body was just like this feels like not the God that I know and I feel like I'm being disingenuous and and trying to play a part. So it's like my whole body was sort of like tense and like recoiling. But where I was at the time I needed belonging, I needed the community, and so I I kind of ignored aversion to it that my body was expressing and I just did it anyways for the belonging and I think a lot of people probably do that.

Shelly Shepherd:

Yeah, it feels like a place that we can get stuck and maybe we can talk about a different point of that. But back to you, Heather. What are the thoughts stirred you in this book?

Heather Drake:

I was again excited because so many of the things that we have found not together but separately. And then we found a beautiful community around other women who were saying you know, nobody actually gave us the road to take but to be able to follow and trust our own spirit, to trust the goodness that we know and the things that are intuitive to us. And I think that some of that comes from the cultures that we're raised in and from the brilliant women who are in our lives that we can glean some from. But I don't think the church has been excellent at teaching women to trust themselves.

Shelly Shepherd:

No, not at all.

Heather Drake:

And so I think the invitation is for the good kingdom that is coming, for the change that we all can agree needs to be here for a kinder, gentler world. We need to begin to, if we haven't already, start trusting our guts and to be able to say, as a woman, I can hear the voice of the spirit, and it may not come from places that people said that it would like outside of us, that it would come from this inward place of a knowing, of a remembering of an ancient sound, of a song that we've never heard before, but once we hear it we're like, yes, that is it. And so the affirmation more of our spirit when we recognize the goodness, or recognize the kindness and the mercy that comes from understanding and hearing the divine. Those kind of things draw us further, I think, into a beautiful community that is being built by the Spirit but is also asking us to pay attention to the witness that came before us, and I was raised in a different church tradition, but the Pentecostal holiness, and so I didn't actually believe in any of the witness of the Catholic faith and and of those things. And so to to go now and to find so much treasure in the, the preservation of the testimony that has been there, particularly the women saints, and I think, in it being 2025 right now, julian's testimony that all will be well, all shall be well is like this it's an anchor for everyone's soul going okay.

Heather Drake:

This is what the women have said before. This is what we're saying now that we can trust the power of love, that eternal love is the place where we can, you know, put our feet and then say you know, we can make something beautiful out of this. I don't know if you've read that poem that talks about the world and talks about it's a terrible place, but you could make something beautiful from that. And for people that do renovation and women who design and make things I just look around going it's got good bones. We might have to knock everything down, but we could make something beautiful out of it.

Heather Drake:

And I think this is the call of the spirit to, not just to women, but to the voice of the feminine, to the tenderness, to the gentleness and the power that comes in that. We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend, and if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionistheologycom. I was going to ask a question that maybe somebody else had already asked, but do you have a particular mystic or a testimony of a woman outside of the Mother Mary that just rings the bell for you?

Shannon Evans:

There's several of them in the book. Marjorie Kemp, who is not recognized as a Catholic saint but is very, she's fascinating and she's the only mother in the book that I highlighted and she's just an incredibly complex and fascinating woman who could not be put in a box. Her devotion to her children versus her own personal calling and her own yeah, her own. Her desire to pave her own way in the world, her desire to make use of her life to the fullest. And I just related to her a lot because I still have young children and I found her fascinating. And then I write about this in the book.

Shannon Evans:

But Catherine of Siena she's the last couple of chapters in the book and right before I wrote the last chapter I got critically sick and almost died of sepsis and was in the hospital and she in the ICU and she was really my companion there and like unexpectedly she had never necessarily been my favorite or anything, but like I was kind of fascinated with, like how gory and kind of gross her life was, as like a woman in the Middle Ages who lived through plagues, and like served sick people. Like it was a gross life. You know, served sick people, it was a gross life. And so I thought about her a lot and really kind of felt her hand on my life that week in the hospital. So, yeah, I think those two.

Shannon Evans:

And then Teresa of Avila feels very motherly to me, Like I love she, like I love her mixture of incredible wisdom and also just practicality. Like she would tell people, like quit fasting, eat a bowl of soup and take a nap, you know, like like not always, but like if they needed it. You know, and I just kind of there's something really comforting about that that I think that women in particular are able to give that. That feels different than, like if I read a male saint say the same thing, it's fine, Like it's great, there's nothing wrong with that. But it is like I think it's really important to recognize the difference between, like, the way that we receive, like, masculine voices and the way that we receive feminine voices, and that neither one is less valuable than the other one. But they are both really important and they do tend to land in different ways based on our own gender or our own individual history or whatnot. So I let yeah, those are my faves. What about you guys Favorite saints or mystics?

Heather Drake:

I have a lot and I also struggle with being able to say because, like one based on one particular incident or one place where I found need and then found the wisdom there. So at that particular moment that was the favorite, found the wisdom there. So at that particular moment that was the favorite, and so again, I had mentioned earlier, but Mary Magdalene feels like such a beautiful, expansive place. Shelley and I have had many conversations about this and hopefully we'll have many more. But then also, like some of the ones that are just being brought up now, like some of the ones that are just being brought up now, like Megan Watterson has a book out, coming out about Thekla, and so she had even mentioned it, and so I went on a deep dive of who Thekla is and finding those writings and looking at who those people are, this woman who just took it upon herself to like, give herself permission to do these things. And then I'm looking at my own life going. I think I'm doing those exact same things. You know, like I don't need necessarily the hierarchy to say this is the time to do it, I've just done it. And so the invitation is, I think, by the spirit, to also to trust ourselves to embody that love that we need and that we are, but to also invite the presence into, like deeper, like yes, I'm following. I hear it like almost hearing a tuning fork and then listening for that, you know. And so I hear that a lot in the voices of these women and I love I know that you had a beautiful intentional formula for who you included, but I love the St Bridget, yeah, um, from and and and her relation.

Heather Drake:

A lot of times, um, in allegorical ways that myths can handle, you know, she also becomes the Mary Magdalene, and so then, how are you also St Bridget and anyway. So I just love that bigger truth and I think that the stories that we had as younger people growing up, like from the Lord of the Rings and from those things, really remind us of there can be so many layers. It's not just the historical, you know, written word that we have, but going past that into the spirit, going. What is the spirit revealing to us about this? What is she calling us into and what is possible if we listen to that voice? What is possible for us, what is possible for the world if we have enough confidence in that gentle voice. Shelley, what are your favorites in?

Shelly Shepherd:

that gentle voice. Shelley, what are your favorites? Wow, I would say ditto to Mary Magdalene, for sure, and for so many reasons that she has held a place for so long, you know, in the life of Jesus, even till now, so really high up there with Mary Magdalene. And also, I don't know, I think it's hard to pick a favorite because you read, you read the, the historicity of of where they stood and how how their work was preserved or lost and then was revived somehow, and I think you allude to that some Shannon as well. I think maybe Julian's was what? 500 years or so, I can't remember that work.

Shelly Shepherd:

I don't actually remember the exact number, but one of the things that I want to ask you. I wanted to ask you about this quote in regards to well, I'm just fascinated with the women and how even Marjorie Kemp oh my goodness, her life and how she just forged ahead with what spirit was calling her to do. But you mentioned in the book, we tend to adhere to precedents rather than follow our own souls, and I wonder what it is about the mystics that allowed them, even in the midst of all the patriarchy and hierarchy that they were born into I mean literally like it was being shaped around them they seem to have found their soul and connected to that, regardless of what somebody was telling them. Do you see that? I know you see it in some of the six that you wrote about. But what is this precedence that we want to hang on to rather than listen to our own souls? Of what spirit is calling us higher to or further in, or wider or more expansive?

Shannon Evans:

I kind of made the choice, as I was writing to, to really focus on what I, what I loved about these women or what I felt, what I felt in particular they had to contribute to our conversation today.

Shannon Evans:

But there are some things that I'm like oh, hildegard, you still had some, you still had some internalized misogynism there, you know, or like you know.

Shannon Evans:

I mean, you can kind of see that the hold that patriarchy still had upon them in different ways.

Shannon Evans:

And so it's like, in some ways that is disappointing, because you know there are spiritual heroes and then in some ways it's and I'm talking, you know there are spiritual heroes and then in some ways it's and I'm talking, you know it could be micro things, but, um, but in some ways it's, it's almost comforting of like, okay, like we're all just doing for the fight, you know that was within them of like it's, it's, it's really proof of like what they did resist or what they did overcome overcome perhaps was actually more meaningful than had they been throwing off the entire thing, because there was a wrestle there, there's a fight to figure it out without, and I think that's something I might be going off tangent of your question, but I think that's something that is so relevant still today, of like, how much do we, how much do we, stay within institutions that are not healthy and try to create change, and then how do we know when it's time to leave and what do we do if we do leave?

Shannon Evans:

You know, like these questions I mean I just I think every woman I know is asking them right now.

Shelly Shepherd:

Well, we adhere. We adhere to the patriarchy or the hierarchy or the precedence that was set in a particular belief or dogma, and and so, like you said, maybe we stay too long in that pew and we can't find the exit, but we know, if we, if we leave that particular institution or or that particular posture, that it's going to be a lonely walk until we find Shannon Evans Right.

Shannon Evans:

Not me, don't look for me. Yes, no, I know. Yeah, I know what you mean.

Shelly Shepherd:

Which we were just talking about this. Shannon, though, we were talking in the pre-show about Heather. Maybe you want to share this piece because I think it came from you the entry point to understanding the mystics. Really, your work and your book is wow. Like everybody needs to read this yeah.

Heather Drake:

It is one of the things that Shelley and I were talking about earlier, because what if people haven't read any of the mystics or haven't heard of some of these people that we're talking about? That we found through acts of spirit and strange and wonderful things. Somebody else had a conversation and then it drew us into further conversation, but one of the things that I appreciated so much about the book was that I really felt like it was, and it was not in any ways like a primer or basic, but if you'd never followed the teachings of these people or even heard of them, this would be a great place to be inspired and be able to go. Oh, that sounds like something that could be useful to me or could be encouraging to me or could be hopeful, and I love the. It felt a little bit like a menu of looking at things and going. That would delight me. I would like to read more about that, and so that was really beautiful. I think that Shelly and I had talked about it. If someone has never done it, it might be difficult to read.

Heather Drake:

Hildegard of Bingen, you know, just at first, and Mara by Star is incredible, but maybe not right off the bat, because that's a lot to you know, and, again, I think that she's there to expand our vision and to teach us so much. But I loved the idea that I think that if somebody was interested and didn't know where to start, that your book would be such a great place to be able to say yeah, come, listen, here's the good water, here is something that is for your thirst, and I think that, yeah, thank you so much for all the efforts I'm sure that you put into that, but I think it was. It's a beautiful place for people to go. Yeah, let's, let's look for them, let's look for the voices of the women who can encourage us into you know, more of like a biographical exploration and I'm like, but there are so many books like that out there.

Shannon Evans:

You can go find them, I promise you know. So I wanted this to be for people who maybe wouldn't naturally be like so excited to read about, you know, therese of Lisieux or something you know. It's an intro, it's a menu. I love that. I love that metaphor.

Heather Drake:

Yeah, it was. It's beautiful, we appreciate. We appreciate that so much. I did have one question, because I'm not sure. So I'm guessing that there have been people who loved you, who felt like maybe you were going off the rails or over the cliff, and they're like you've gone off the rails or over the cliff and they're like you've gone too far with this whole spirit and with this, you know, looking for more. And and do you have any encouragement or salve for someone who is, you know, maybe been rubbed raw by someone who who really believes that that stepping outside of these particular confines is dangerous or is harmful, and is there anything that you can offer as a guide or as a hope for someone who is practicing this following? I?

Shannon Evans:

smiled when you said that, because visceral memories, you know, come to mind of things that people have said and I'm smiling. But it can be really hurtful, especially if it's somebody that you have a relationship with. It's different if it's a stranger on the internet. But yeah, like you know, I think what I would say is that one of the most, one of the most grounding scripture verses for me is when Jesus says you look to the right and to the left I'm not quoting it verbatim, but you're looking everywhere for the kingdom of God, but the kingdom of God is within you, God is within you, and that, I think, is just.

Shannon Evans:

I come back to that a lot because at the end of the day, you, you kind of have to to make peace with the fact that you're, you are responsible for yourself, Like no one. No one is responsible for you, no one answers for you, and that means that you can be trusted. If you are made to answer for yourself at the end of the day which I think all of us are, because nobody is, you know, we're not robots, right? Then that means that you were created to know how to get there yourself. You were created with a inner voice, an inner compass that is trustworthy and that you can follow. And if Jesus said you don't have to be looking to other people to find the kingdom of heaven, then that means it really is within you.

Shannon Evans:

Like you really can trust it and, of course, like that requires wisdom and maturity and it does require like finding, you know, in my life it has been my spiritual director, who is a woman in her seventies, has been so a lay woman, has been so formative for me because I do trust her and so if she tells me to trust myself, then I, then I can a little bit more, and so I think that having those people, um, is really important. So, like I, you know, I'm not saying like trust every idea that ever comes into your head, but part of being human and part of taking responsibility for your own life is that you have to be moving towards maturity, you have to be moving towards wholeness and wisdom and as you do that you'll be able to distinguish more and more what the voice of spirit is in your life, what that voice of wisdom is.

Heather Drake:

Thank you so much for that. Thank you for all the wisdom that we shared today. I'm just so grateful that you took time out of your family and out of your own personal life to share with us. We love the books. Thank you so much for them. We'll put some notes in the show notes and in the socials, so people want to find out more about where you are, where to get your books. I'm sure they can get them on Amazon, but I'm sure there's a local bookstore that would love to um order one for you, um, and so we'll get that information out. But thank you so much, shannon, for your time. We appreciate you.

Shelly Shepherd:

Blessing. Great to have you, shannon. Thank you so much for your wisdom and your words and placing this into everybody's hands. Thank you for doing that, thank you.

Heather Drake:

It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionistheologycom.