The Expansionist Podcast
Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake invite you to listen in on a continuing conversation about expanding spirituality, the Divine Feminine, and the transforming impact of living attuned to Wisdom, Spirit and Love.
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The Expansionist Podcast
Women's Leadership and Divine Generosity with Dr. Froswa Booker- Drew
What if the biblical stories we've known all our lives missed crucial voices—particularly those of women? Join us as we sit down with Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew to uncover the forgotten female leaders of the Bible and discover how reinterpreting these stories can empower the next generation of women in leadership. Heather Drake also weighs in on Jesus' revolutionary inclusivity, which not only created spaces for women but celebrated their inherent strength. This conversation reflects the significance of inclusive and compassionate storytelling to bridge gaps and build unity.
We also delve into the evolving landscape of social and political activism for women and people of color. From the enduring struggle for pay equity to the contradictions of leaders who preach abundance while restricting opportunities, our discussion highlights the need for creating paths that empower marginalized groups. Drawing parallels between the past and present, we hold up figures like Mary Magdalene as timeless symbols of resilience and advocate for building inclusive communities that foster genuine change.
In the final segments, we explore themes of generosity, love, and the sacred value of women. We emphasize the importance of recognizing our divine worth and the unique role women play in fostering love and hope. By broadening our perspectives through diverse voices and embracing cognitive dissonance, we challenge listeners to create spaces of genuine expression and to envision a more inclusive and hopeful future for the next generation. Join us in celebrating gratitude, love, and the boundless potential of every individual's story.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit and love.
Shelly Shepherd:Good afternoon my friends Heather Drake and Froswa Booker-Drew. It's so good to have the two of you here in this space today. Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast. Glad to be here, thank you.
Heather Drake:Shelley, I'm excited about what our conversation is going to lead to and the expansion that our imaginations and our hearts are going to be able to have based on the conversation that we have as women that we have as women.
Shelly Shepherd:Yes, and Froswa and I go back several years and it was just a delight to reach out to you in our friendship, in this leadership journey that you and I have had and been on.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:And maybe still we're still on and I was gonna go.
Shelly Shepherd:I'm not off, we still are on this space together, yeah, but I wanna to introduce the listeners to you in this, this, this impressive resume that you have, dr. Dr Froswa, is you know that you are this person who just loves building relationships with people? You are this network weaver, you are a philanthropist, you are a community developer and you've built this diverse network of individuals and organizations around the world, right? Just unbelievable reach and just the people that I've met as a result of you. I've just been so blessed by the way that you share. Isn't that like a philanthropist heart, right?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:Yes, yes.
Shelly Shepherd:Just to keep sharing and giving and expanding. But Frasua has more than 25 years of experience in leadership development, training, nonprofit management, education and social services. She's the author of four books, an adjunct professor at Tulane University, research affiliate at Antioch University and a columnist for Texas Metro News. You can learn more about her at drfraswabookercom. So, so excited to jump into this conversation, this expansion, this space with you today and hear what is on your heart, what is in your hands, what have you been doing and how is this women in leadership space impacting you and others?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:You know, lately I've been working on and we talked about this a little bit. I've been working on a book that you really were a lot of the inspiration behind some of the topics in the book, but I've been working on a book for women of color and leadership and really thinking about it through a faith lens, because I don't think we one see women in the Bible as leaders. I think we're often accustomed to people with these titles of king and queen and even when we've seen those, quite often like with Vashti and the Bible as queen, they're demonized. And so I really want to help women see themselves in these characters and learn more about their journey and to see the similarities and what are the lessons that they can learn from these amazing women that you know we hear preached about but we don't really see the impact of their lives on us today. And so it's been a journey in writing this, but it's been a gift because you started so much of this.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:One of the things I talk about in the book is the word easer and talking about what does it mean if women really understood what that word means, that you're a warrior and how, from the beginning, that God saw you that way. That's what I want to impact on women when they read this is that you are more than just being the help meat. You have so much more. There's nothing wrong with being complimentary, but there's something that you have that's even bigger, that I don't think you recognize within, that allows you to be complimentary, that allows you to be the warrior, and that's what I want people to walk away with.
Shelly Shepherd:Wow, you have a comment on that, heather, I'm sure.
Heather Drake:And then I'll jump in of connection and really why Shelley and I decided let's record the conversations that we have.
Heather Drake:Is really these ideas that we are expanding?
Heather Drake:And again, this really important facet for us is telling the better story, or telling the story with a slant, telling it from another perspective, in no way mitigating or diminishing that perspective, but saying there were other people in the room, there were other people who brought gifts.
Heather Drake:And how do we find ourselves? Because very often the story that we've been told in churches and I've grown up in the church and am a pastor now but the stories we've told are largely stories of the brothers, of the men. And so to be able to say that I have a place in the story that God is continuing to tell and my daughter has a place in the story that God in the future will be telling or in the present future is telling, and to be able to gift my sons with the compassion as they hear and see the value in the women that are around them, and so I think the work that we do is holy, it's sacred, but it's absolutely important because when things are hard, we need to tell softer, more beautiful, more grace-filled stories that can build bridges and unite us, even in spaces where we don't understand.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:Heather, as you were talking, one of the things that immediately came to mind is thinking about how Christ created space for women to be a part of the story. So when you think about the sisters and he's saying one is doing the better thing Mary and Martha one is doing the better thing because she's sitting at my feet while I'm talking and telling these stories and using these parables to help people connect to the greater, and that he's saying that the sister who's being busy is missing out on the opportunity to be a part of this story. And so I think it's just fascinating, you know, as you're putting this picture together for us, I think it's fascinating to think about how Jesus created those spaces too for the story I love that you brought that story up, because I was thinking about the other day and I was thinking we've heard it a particular way.
Heather Drake:The lens is Jesus is having this conversation and he responds to Martha by saying that Mary is doing the better thing. But I wonder if that's not exactly the case. I wonder if he was telling the boys that Mary is doing the better thing Because, culturally, what would have been expected is the women would have done the work and that the men would sit at the feet of their rabbi. So here's Mary, front row, sitting at the feet of the rabbi, and Jesus says no, this is the thing. And then makes this declaration this will never be taken from her.
Heather Drake:Yes yes, makes this declaration. This will never be taken from her. Yes, yes. And so this beautiful you know this again, this invitation of yes, I'm telling the story that women are included, jesus absolutely did. But to be able to say what if we believe, or what if we take a moment to think about the fact that every man in that room needed to hear Jesus qualify this as this is the higher thing, this is the better thing, that her role is not just to serve the other men here.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:Her role is to learn and to be able to be part of the exchange, Agreed, Agreed, I think, to your point. I think it's a both, and I think that there are lessons for both groups in that and that Christ is giving by saying that you're right, it's the invitation. And so how are we in our daily walk, as we're talking about stories and bringing people close, creating space for the invitation for people to be able to partake in listening to diverse stories? Because when you all were talking, I was thinking about all of these stories in the Bible. You may.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:You know, when you all were talking, I was thinking about all of these stories in the Bible. We don't often think about the other people that are there just in. You know, looking at the Mark, Luke, John, you know the first four books of the New Testament, how they were talking about the same experiences but gave a very different perspective on those experiences. How is it that we create space to be able to give different perspectives of those experiences? I don't know if we do that well in the church of allowing people to give their testimony of those experiences that we're all a part of, so that we can create this better picture and a better narrative.
Heather Drake:Yeah, and I just want to say, as a person who still believes in the power of a local congregation, that if you have been silenced by the church or if no one has listened to you, I repent on behalf of that and keep looking, keep talking, keep speaking till you are heard. Do not give up just because someone told you to be quiet. In fact, speak louder, if you need to and move.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:I don't think women need to continue to be in abusive spaces. Agreed, I think as a society we talk a lot about trauma that we experience in the world, but I don't think we really talk a lot about the trauma that church has caused, especially to women, and that there is a healing that has to come for all. Like you were saying, I'm sorry, in doing that, the church has got to repent for a lot of things too that have been done that have been harmful in the name of power and position. That was not connected to what God said we should be doing, but because the man's ego and desire to rule have harmed a lot of people.
Heather Drake:Yeah, and I think that you know paying attention and offering an apology is a start from the church, but I think that's not enough. I think the church needs to make amends and needs to build better bridges to a more equitable space where we do what Jesus offered us to do. Pass this around All of you eat this, drink this.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:This is what it looks like to be a part of this, yes, and I think Jesus also did this thing. That I often encourage people to do as well is who's missing. I think Jesus went and looked for the least of these people that everybody discarded and said you're not good enough to be with us. That Jesus said who's missing? I'm going to get them, and I think we have a responsibility to start asking who's missing from this story and how do we go get them?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:If I got to go at night and have a conversation with you for you to understand that I care about you, what is it that we have to do? Instead of thinking that everyone has to come inside the church, that Jesus went to where people were and that has to change, that we begin to see the church as being more than the four walls that we have, but understanding that there are people outside of that place that need us, and he went to them and met them at their need. I think, too, he demonstrates that the physical need has to be met. I think so often we get so caught up in telling people about you know you need to do this, and this is what the word says, and that's important, but if I'm hungry and I'm not just hungry on Thanksgiving and Christmas. But if I'm hungry then I need you to be there for me and support me. I'm going to be able to understand the spiritual when my stomach's not growling.
Shelly Shepherd:That's so good. You know one of the things that I heard you say in the pre-show, and correct me if this is inaccurate, but this work that's coming forth in 2025 is focused on women of color, or women of color in leadership.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:It's women of color in leadership. But this is the thing, and I preface it leadership. All of us are leaders, so it's for anyone. I think we get so caught up on positional power that we don't recognize the first person you're leading is you, so you're all leaders, so it's for everybody, right.
Shelly Shepherd:Well, I asked that question to ask this one. You know, when we're looking at these pieces of who's missing from the table, whose voice is not here, and as you are in the circles that you are in with women of color and people of color, what are those stories that they're hearing or that they've been told? And then, how are those stories different stories that they're telling their children telling their children? You know, are we getting to a place where the conversation that the three of us are having right now, that we're at the beginning Well, at least I feel like maybe you guys don't feel this way, but we're at the beginning of learning to tell a better story, because we're not afraid to talk about the voices that are missing. We're not afraid to talk about that.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:I think that there is a sense of people having more space to be vocal in ways that did not exist in the past. I had to tell my daughter this about as you're looking at history and she was kind of going well, why weren't people fighting? I said they were, but it was a very different time. There were barriers that existed and systems that were even more restrictive in ways that they still exist. It's different, and so people have more of an ability to speak out. That doesn't have the same level of consequence or the consequences wouldn't be so overwhelming. They can be in a way that didn't exist in 1950 and 1960. So I think people have always had those challenges that exist because of being different, whether it's being Black or being a woman or you know what other identity it may be. That's not the mainstream and accepted, but I think the stories that I'm hearing from people are there's change but there's not change. So I think that in some areas we're seeing advancement and you're seeing opportunities, but you're also seeing how those opportunities are being taken and another narrative being created around what their true intent is, which is fueled with fear and hate and misinformation a lot of those narratives and they're fueled from a place of lack.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:I marvel when I hear a lot of these people who are in positions of power, who talk about God but live in a way of scarcity. Because if God tells you that I've got 10,000 cattle on all these hills, then how is it that God is talking about? I came and gave you a life to have it abundantly and have it more abundantly. God is saying this, and yet you don't want people to have the same opportunities that you have. You want to limit them because you think you're going to lose something. What Bible are you reading? Because I'm confused, because that's not what I get out of that that there is plenty in God's kingdom for all of us. So I don't have to limit you from being the greatest version of yourself, because in limiting you also hurt me because I don't get to benefit from your brilliance and your wisdom. But if I allow you to have these opportunities and access and availability to be the greatest version of you, oh my goodness, what happens for me and the world around me and my children?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:But by creating these systems and barriers that lock people out? So while you're holding me down, you're also holding you down and I don't think people really understand that. My mother always says if you dig a ditch for me, you need to dig too, because you're going to have to watch me stay in the ditch in order to keep me there. So you're not only hurting yourself from getting out because you think you're hurting me, and so I think the story is. You know, right now I think people are feeling hopeful, but I also think for a lot of women you're seeing, you know, a lot of pay disparity, especially as women of color. We know women, period, don't make the same amount as men. But when you start looking at women of color, the paid disparities another conversation I could have. Well, you had that experience yourself.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:Can't really talk about it, but yes, and so you begin to start seeing your value isn't valued in the same way, although you're doing the work, you got the education, got the experiences, but the value isn't in the same way. And so I think for a lot of women, what they're telling their children is is that you be the best.
Heather Drake:We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend, and if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionistheologycom.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:When I was growing up, it was you got to be 10 times better. You got to work hard, hard, hard and almost kill yourself because it was the belief of maybe people will accept you if you do all these things. You know, and the term is called respectability politics, where if I just dress a certain way and if I talk a certain way and my hair is a certain way, that you're going to accept me certain way that you're going to accept me, what we're discovering is that's not necessarily true, that I can do all the things that society says I can do, and you still will find fault. So how do I figure out how to be the greatest version of myself and live in the totality of who God has called me to be, regardless of a world that says you got to do one, two, three, four, five, knowing that you can do six and still may not get it?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:So I think the messaging is different for people now than trying to fit in is telling their kids if there is not a table for you to set it, go create your own table. And if that means going creating, I told my daughter, I said it's not even a table go build your building and then you invite people into the building. You don't do the exact same thing that others have done. You do something different where you bring everybody into the building and you make this amazing organization so you don't have to worry about not being at the table. Bump, that Do something else. Yeah, and I think that's the difference.
Shelly Shepherd:You know, as I'm listening as I'm listening to you, you know we're here this week honoring Mary magdalene uh, her feast day was monday the 22nd and as I'm listening, uh, to your story, I'm wondering how far we, we are removed, uh, from this story in in biblical times. Um, we were, we were at a dinner table on Monday evening and the stories that were shared about life experiences as women, as women in leadership, as women in the church, as women in the public eye, right eye, right, the stories as they unfolded made me think that I was listening to Mary Magdalene's story, you know, from first century, second century, third century, you know, here we are in 2024. And the stories sound the same. Maybe we could talk a little bit about that, heather.
Shelly Shepherd:Why are these? Why are these struggles so prevalent? We know patriarchy is at the helm of that, we know that. But if we're, if we're inviting people to be part of a better story, to tell a better story, like you said, frazwa, build your own building story why is this still so, so prevalent and so challenging in our time? Heather, maybe take us down that road as we, as we think about you, know how we honor what we have been called to do or what we've been asked to do or what we've been gifted to do. And yet somebody's telling us, depending on, like you said, fraswa, the color of our skin, the look of our hair, what side of the tracks we live on, somebody is still telling us oh, you can't do that, you can't sit at that table with Jesus because you're a woman.
Heather Drake:I think ultimately it comes back to something that Francois was mentioning earlier. There is an insidious lie that we have been fed as humanity that there is scarcity instead of abundance and we have been afraid of each other and even other women. I mean, I think to myself that if just between the women I mean the boys can sit out of this one, if between the women we would support each other, if between the women we would give up capitalist greed, if between the women we would say I don't need all of this. Where is the equity in this? And whatever platform, whatever place we have, whatever gift we have, whatever resource, if we look around and even if we just feed each other, even if we just take care of our families, our babies, if just the women would get in line and be able to say, okay, this has gone this far, no more. No more, we are not excluding each other, I think that could change the world. I think if just women could say we'll handle it from here. Thank you, brothers, we have got this. And not to exclude them, I have sons, I have a husband, I have a father.
Heather Drake:I don't want to excuse them, but this hierarchy and this patriarchy and these principalities that are talked about, that govern in unseen places, but they give us this idea that there is not enough for us when the truth is, god is abundance, god is love and there is enough love for everyone there. But when we start being the hands and feet of Christ and going this is what I have, how do I share it? And I think I would really love to to uh, volley this to you, fazwa, and have it. Have you respond to it. But I believe that when you stay in love and you return to the love that is the source of God, it produces in you a byproduct of generosity that when you experience this I have been given this then I can give it away.
Heather Drake:I mean, I think of the story we mentioned earlier of the little boy who gives his lunch away, and we've retold the story to talk about the mom who packed a lunch and who packed enough for her boy to be generous and say give it away. When Jesus shows up, give it away. I mean he wasn't worried that his mom was going to be mad at him when he came home and he would get. You know what I mean. Like there's a generosity in this woman already in this story. And so he's free to give it away, because he knows when he goes home, if he'd given it away, his mom's going to make him something else. And so this story of abundance, if we believe it and if we act in it, can lead us to a more practiced and holistic generosity, not where I am generous only if I believe you're worthy or if I believe you deserve this, but just an outflow of generosity. So to you with that, so good.
Shelly Shepherd:So good.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:But you know I was telling someone this earlier about this is so good, so good, our source. So we're disconnected. I remember in class Monday night we were talking about the cross, how the cross reaches up to man, but I mean reaches up to God, but out to man. And one of the things that just blew me away is the cross. The part of the cross that goes up and down can stand by itself. It doesn't need us to be there with the relationship piece. But check this out If I take the up and down part away, this can't stand on its own. It's going to fall.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:Our relationships are contingent and our generosity is contingent upon the source that it's flowing out of, a source Not that money is a bad thing. I love it, it's great. It can't be your idol and what we've done is we've idolized the creations but not the creator. And so when that disconnect happens, I can't be generous because the source that I'm coming out of is limited. When I connect to God, that's an unlimited source. I will always have what I need, because that is who I am putting first. But a lot of us are. We go to church and we talk about these things, but our real connection is not to God. We put money and things above that, and so when you do that, you have nothing to operate out of when those things are gone. But if you got God, the possibilities are endless. That's what's missing and why people aren't generous. Their source is not the source they want us to believe it is.
Heather Drake:I often wonder, too, if there is a beginning story that needs to be told or retold, or told louder or experimented on, is that you are loved by God. You're very you, at the very source. You are loved, you are beloved. There is nothing that you will do to earn God's love, and so you can always return to your father, to the eternal parent, to your home. There's nothing that can separate you from that. So, recognizing and claiming our own belovedness and saying I am loved not because of what I've done, not because of whose I am, other than the fact that I bear the image of God, I am loved not because of what I've done, not because of who I am, other than the fact that I bear the image of God. I am invited into this eternal conversation.
Heather Drake:But owning belovedness, I think, is maybe not something that's been prioritized in the church, particularly for women. You're not loved when you have a husband. You're not loved when you have this thing or you've earned this hierarchical achievement in Christendom. You have a family, somehow. That's a place of hierarchy in women in the church. But to be able to say just you as you are, bear a light and an image of Christ, and there's nothing that will separate you from the love of God. I think that often people have told us there are things that will separate the stories they've told us is we have a very angry father who is keeping track of all our infractions, you know, and who wants to go home when they're going to be criticized. But what if we understood that the table was open, that this is a feast that we've been invited to and that love always calls us home?
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:It's two things. And you're saying that, heather, that that I think about. A lot of us see our earthly parents as the representation of who God is, and so if you've had such a warped relationship with your earthly parents, you're going to look at God as an ass whipper, I mean cause you're going to be like, oh, I always got in trouble, so he's waiting on me. And I remember a pastor told me years ago he said you have an Old Testament view of God. And I was like, yeah, because anything bad that happened. I went, oh my God, god is mad at me.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:And it wasn't until I got free from that way of thinking to understand that how do I have a child that I say I love and I want to watch you fall and fail and I get some kind of sadistic joy out of that? That? That, how, how does that work? If I don't do that as a parent, how does God, who is our, our father and ultimate father, how do I do that and look at you and go, yeah, I love, when you keep hurting yourself, I, I don't understand how we have warped this. But again, it goes back to control Because, as a woman, if I can make you think that you don't fit. You're different, you are created to a secondary status. If I can make you think that, then you don't see how you fit into this picture anyway, because I've made you to believe that this picture wasn't even designed and created for you. It was for men to be a part of this picture.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:Well, that's problematic and we know that. We see the results of what that's doing, and so it's to your point. When you all started is you know, and it goes back to this quote, we need to be mindful of who's telling the story and the benefit that they have in telling the story, because I can promise you, the hunter is going to have a very different story than the deer and the deer is going to have a very different story than the hunter. And both of those stories are very valid. Hopefully they're truthful, are very valid, hopefully they're truthful. Let's put it like that, because sometimes a hunter may embellish their story just to make themselves look bigger and better and have control. But I'll leave that alone.
Shelly Shepherd:Well, yeah, there's that, and we often have these conversations Heather and I are having these conversations at table and in other places where the female side of the story has totally either been left out, for the most part, ripped out or burned, you know, extinguished, so that we can't even get our hands on the real story. Right, the pieces that we could actually read in Scripture and benefit from, right, like those have been, you know, taken away or, you know, just not included. They're not included, and that's why this desire and focus around seeing Mary Magdalene as the apostle to the apostles, right, this is why this story is a better story than even the story of Adam and Eve, right, like that story got all jiggered up somehow, I don't know, like it's all messed up, and it also touches on what Heather reminded us of, you know, the story of lack, yeah, the curse rather than the blessing the beloved right, like somehow that got all sideways, you know, in how it was rendered into scripture.
Shelly Shepherd:And so for the women that you are writing for right, and for the women who we are trying to reach as well, it's like there is a place and a time for us to begin again, which is this present moment, which is this present time to see our value and our worth and this sacred divine connection that God has given us all and to see the value and worth of one another.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:It's important for me to know my value, but I have to know, if we're creating the image of God, that when I am looking at you, I am looking at a creation that God felt valuable enough to be here, and so I can't just look at you from a space of competition and see the scarcity. I have to see that when we come together with the gifts and talents that God has given each of us, wow what we can create and change and make impact on. But I think if you don't value my story and I don't value your story, then we've already created a limitation on God, because what we're basically saying is I don't trust you to fulfill the purpose and plan that God has for you. I got to trust that God is going to do what he needs to do in you and that I got to trust that in myself and know that there's something special when we both are walking with each other and being destiny helpers with each other.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:What's the impact that we can have when we begin to start giving space to hear each other's stories and to recognize that there's value in all of us, that God is using you, shelly, and using you, heather, for such a time as this. All of us have that such a time as this, for this season. We are here, so why would I limit you from being what God has called you to be? Because your destiny is connected to mine. So if you don't fulfill what God has, that limits somebody else's ability to do that. We got to create space for everybody to be what God has called them to be. We're missing out.
Heather Drake:I think one of the things that I would like to remind people who listen is that we have a lot of freedom that we're not even aware of. We have a lot of choices and a lot of power that we are leaving on the table, and we need to take it back. And one of the things that we can do is pay attention to who is telling the story in the stories that we're consuming. Are we reading bell hooks? Are we reading Sojourner Truth? Who reminds us, us all the time, it was God and a woman who brought us Jesus, and so maybe the new revelation we need to be reminded of it is God and women who will bring forth this new way of loving and saying. You know, this is a chance for the world to be different. This is a chance for us to not lean into despair, but lean into hope and say what are we doing to listen to the voice of our you know, our Indian sisters, our Indian elders, our people, american Indians, like.
Heather Drake:Are you reading Caitlin Curris? Are you reading Marlena Graves? Are you reading these people? Or are you choosing to hear the story from the same source that you've always heard it from, like? Can we open up the streams. Can we say this trickle is not enough, that there is waterfall kind of abundance for all of us. But we have to make choices. To hear the stories, because the stories are being told, but our choice is whose podcast are you listening to? Whose book are you reading? And if we keep repeating the same story, we're going to get the same result. So we need to make choices that free us and that expand us and that ask us, in a place of humility, to learn from someone else's experience, not just the ones that we have seen.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:And Heather. I would add that people need to be okay with I'm going to go academic for a minute with cognitive dissonance. I got to be okay that you present me something that's uncomfortable. Yes, ma'am, that you may say something that I go ooh, I don't know about that. But instead of being defensive or retreating that we sit with that, figure out where that is in your body that's making you uncomfortable. Is it in my stomach? Why is that? Why is my chest tightening up? And begin to get in touch with why you feel the way that you do, instead of automatically going that's wrong and I want to shut someone down.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:There is so much polarization in the world right now because we want to be right Everybody wants to be right instead of going. How do we create peace? What does it really mean for us to create spaces where people can bring the totality of who they are and I don't have to agree with everything and I don't have to like everything, but that doesn't mean that your opinion is less than mine or less valid. And how do we just be okay with people just showing up and who God called them to be? That's not my. It is not my job to fix you. Hell, I can't fix myself. So.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:I mean, there are days where I'm like, why did you do that? If I can't fix me and correct me, how dare I think it's okay for me to start telling other people what to do when I don't even have it down? And that's what gets me with a lot of the super, super, you know, dogmatic religious folks is. Excuse me, you're putting up this persona publicly. That you're one way, and privately you're out here being super freak and you can be super freak, but how dare you condemn somebody else for doing it? So get your stuff together and stop looking at the speck in other people's eyes and look at the speck and the log in your own, and when you're able to do that, you can't see me anyway because that log is in your eye. Get that out so you can see me and we can be together. I'm sorry, I'm getting no, no, no, no.
Shelly Shepherd:This is you've heard me say this to you before. Your first calling was to preach.
Heather Drake:I keep hearing that I keep hearing. It Isn't that the very spirit of Mary Magdalene who Jesus said go and tell the boys the better story? Go and tell there is not death is not the final word, that there is love that has been resurrected in all of us, and so I appreciate that so much. Francois, thank you so much for your time. Yes, thank you, francois, and I promise that, with your agreement, this will not be the last conversation that we have.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:I think it is too much. I hope not.
Heather Drake:We need to have some part two, part 22. But it's a beautiful conversation. But I bless the words that you said. May they register in divine and in holistic ways in people's soul, and maybe we just have an imagination that gets to be expanded, or one spark or a question that resonates with someone, and may the spirit guide them in looking for the answer that is promised to us. Jesus said if you knock, the door will be opened, and if you seek, you will find. And so for all of us in the seeking ways that are more equitable for the entire world, jesus said there's a promise that you will find it. The women just need to get to look. And I'm going to end with the one story or you can jump in on it after, but I'm trying to be very mindful of your time and I'll talk quickly here.
Heather Drake:When somebody asks Jesus about who God is, or tell us what God is like, jesus says God is like a woman who starts looking for a coin and I have said this over and over again People laugh at it. You don't send the boys to look for coins. You don't send the boys to look for anything. They can't find them. So God is this woman who will take her skirts up and lay on the ground and look under the bed, in the floorboards, in the drawers. God will look and God is coming for us. God is coming for humanity, and God is coming like a woman who will find us.
Heather Drake:I think it's essential in the part of the story to remember too that coins do not lose themselves. Somebody else has done something, and you might find yourself like a coin that somebody has done something for you. You feel lost, you feel left out, you feel unfound, but love is coming for you, and love is coming for you like a woman who will not stop until she finds you. And so this is the hope for me that we're telling the story that says this is the story of Jesus. Who told us this? Yes, god is the father of the prodigal, yes, god is the good shepherd, but God is a woman who will not stop until she finds you.
Dr. Froswa Booker-Drew:Amen, amen, amen. He's coming for us, amen, he's coming for us. This was beautiful, thank you so much for your time.
Heather Drake:It's important. May they be blessed. Shelly, thank you for your time, for all the spaces you're creating here. Yes, absolutely, thank you. May they be blessed, Shelly, thank you for your time, for all the spaces you're creating here. Yes, absolutely, and for love that's among us. Thank you. And yeah, for our daughters and our sons. May they live in a different place than we do. Amen, amen. It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheologycom.