The Expansionist Podcast

Mysticism That Leads To Transcendence

• Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Have you ever wondered if there's more to spirituality than traditional practices? Join Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake on a personal and historical journey, where we unearth the divine in the unexpected — from the beauty of a desert drive to the peak of a mountain hike. We weave tales of Joan of Arc, Jesus, and childhood mysticism, inviting you to rediscover the sacred voices that have called to you throughout your life. Heather shares her revelation of Jesus in a modern context, offering fresh spiritual exercises that stir the soul and encourage co-creation with the Spirit.

The hustle of life often drowns out the sacred 'voice' we long to hear, leaving us adrift in a sea of 'noise.' Through the lens of Mary and Martha's story, we illuminate the struggle between being productive and being present. This episode challenges you to embrace the transformative power of sitting in love's presence, a state that can lead us back to our true source, sparking creativity and bringing harmony to our inner chaos. It's an invitation to slow down and savor the divine connections that flourish in stillness, rather than the ceaseless buzz of busyness.

Lastly, we delve into the art of spiritual attunement, comparing the heart's tuning to the delicate process musicians undergo with their instruments. The wisdom of mystics like Hadewijch of Brabant and Thomas Keating guide our discussion on the simplicity of encountering God in the mundane and the profound healing offered through practices like centering prayer. As you join us, you'll find encouragement to trust in goodness, embrace renewal, and deepen your awareness of the divine that gracefully orchestrates the world around you. Continue this exploration of infinite spiritual landscapes by visiting expansionisttheology.com, where the journey toward boundless love and wisdom awaits.

Heather Drake:

Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit and love.

Shelly Shepherd:

Well, again it's about that pouring in right, like I have this image of it just being, you know, in this space and you might not. I don this image of it just being you know in this space and you might not, I don't. I don't always feel it in silence. I don't always feel this poor, you know, just sitting in in stillness. But I can feel it at other times, right when I'm not in silence or stillness, or I experience it, you know, on a drive across the desert when all the wildflowers are blooming, or I experience it on top of a mountain after a hike. You know, I think that there are these places that as we move from stillness and silence, it pours in right, from stillness and silence, it pours in right, and we get to have these sacred moments or these holy moments, even if we might not call them those right. That might not be the vernacular that we use, but I think if we could all go back to our earliest years, there was probably some kind of mystical experience that we had, I'm guessing, and we may not have had words for it. But if you look at Joan of Arc, as an example, as a 15-year-old, if you look at Jesus as a 12-year-old, if you look at our own lives as a 12 year old, if you look at our own lives, you know, I think my really my first experience with spirit was 12. And so is there something about this early um exposure, you know, to our innocence, right, that gets dropped in Um but we don't recognize it. Or we do recognize it and it follows us throughout our history and it gets more and more familiar to us. Or do we just leave it back, you know at that first moment, and we don't ever think about it again. Oh, I was just 12 years old. You know that could happen to anybody, it probably will. It probably was nothing. You know at that first moment and we don't ever think about it again. Oh, I was just 12 years old. You know that could happen to anybody, it probably will. It probably was nothing. You know we just kind of push it off Um, and so I I do believe that it's, it's within, right, and I love that Um.

Shelly Shepherd:

The passage of um in the book of wisdom that begins with, of um in the book of wisdom that begins with, for the spirit is within her. You know, well, we are full circle in this conversation today because it's, it's in us right and it's trusting it and it is, it is calling it forth, it's being poured into, and then how do we recognize that as moments of truth that get transformed into love in action? I think that's what these conversations with the two of us are about. It's like teaching us how to take this invisible poor and expand it beyond what we've been taught. You know, past scripture, past the church, looking at these women, mystics and saying, wow, if they could do that, then wow.

Heather Drake:

What's possible now.

Heather Drake:

The last time we were together, we were talking about mystics and clearly we had a conversation that couldn't be handled in the first 30 minutes, and so, in this particular conversation, what you left us with reminds me of an experience that I had, and we can go back in all of our experiences, but in my early 20s I was a young mom and was married and in Bible school, and I read a book by Lori Beth Jones called Jesus in Blue Jeans, and Lori Beth gave me permission to take Jesus from an ancient culture, from an ancient Jewish place, and bring him into the present and look for the spirit among us, and so that practice of reimagining, of looking for a God present with me now, led to such a beautiful opening into so many practices that have allowed for my own spiritual flourishing, for me to be able to call out in my children's life and in the lives of people that we pastor.

Heather Drake:

This is the work of God among you, this is the Spirit, what the Spirit is up to, and I want to tell you that, according to the scriptures, the spirit is up to a new creation. Just, beautiful things are being created. If you have ever been outside in nature and been wowed. There's more, and spirit is inviting us into this co-creation, into telling a better story, into writing a better story, and so the practices that we engage in that will increase our holy imagination but that will lead us into greater love, into more wisdom, into love for ourselves and love for God, love for neighbor, these are the things that following the women mystics, or following people who have been led by spirit into places of more love, of greater maturity, these are the people that we're looking toward, these are the people that we're intending to follow, these are the voices that we're listening to to teach us how to hear the voice of spirit.

Shelly Shepherd:

Yes.

Heather Drake:

Beautifully said. When I come back to listening to the voice of spirit, one of the first stories that was accounted to me in spirit was the story of Samuel. And Samuel has heard something and goes to the person who is supposed to be trusted to teach him and says I've heard my name, what did you need? And he has to go back yes and no, I didn't call. And then, finally, on the third time, the teacher is then reminded oh wait, someone else may be calling. And so, on behalf of all the people who have taught us, grace, grace, grace.

Heather Drake:

But I want to remind you that, even if your teachers have failed or failed to tell you that there is a greater one calling. Hear that today amongst us, that those longings that we have, those little maybe itches or inclinations, those are holy and the work that spirit wants to do, not just in a way, that's in an idea, but how we could change culture, how we could influence things that we recognize and go. That's not beautiful, that's not loving, that's not kind. How we could be people with such a beautiful imagination and such intuitive hearing that we could co-create with spirit and make the beautiful world that God designed.

Shelly Shepherd:

Yeah, if ever there was a time Heather for transcendence, I think it is now. Our world is broken. I think it is.

Heather Drake:

Yeah, and people are hurting, and they've been hurting for a long time, but this seems like a crossroads, it seems like a very a threshold moment, a pivotal time to be able to say we are at a precipice. What would it be like for our collective consciousness to be aware that spirit is with us and leading us? And I think that the women are hearing it. I do. I feel like we're hearing it in our guts, we're hearing it in our dreams, we're hearing it in our daydreams and in places that we are looking for beauty. And I'm excited about the fact that these, what seem like very simple practices can lead us further into the sacred, can lead us further into connection with the holy and can give us answers to things that have maybe seemed like they had no answers. And I hesitate even to use the word answer because sometimes, beloved, we're asking the wrong question so we may never get that answer. There may be a better question given to us than necessarily an answer.

Shelly Shepherd:

Well, I think the basic thing here is that we need a way to hear the voice above the noise, and I know we're going to talk more about that, because I think the voice is calling. I think that's what you're also trying to say is, the voice is calling us, and how do we hear that voice, that voice of spirit, and rise to this, to this calling or to this occasion, uh, differently than we ever have before? I think that that is also the the intention particularly of of, of of being still. It's hard to imagine that stillness can create a space to hear the voice or to hear spirit, but let's try, let's keep trying and keep inviting others into this practice of silence.

Heather Drake:

Another practice that I see in the life of Jesus and I see in the life of those who have followed, is a radical hospitality, and I believe that in our hospitality, in our conversations around the bread and the wine, around a really good meal, even around a cup of tea or a cup of coffee, is this understanding that there is a nourishment that happens to our souls in these places, of being able to be in the presence of someone else who knows the voice and can tell us yes, you've heard that voice, that is the voice, trust the voice. Or in places where we can absolutely make mistakes, I think that we have to take maybe the stigma or the fear of making a mistake away from- or the perfection.

Shelly Shepherd:

Yes, have to take the perfection out of that.

Heather Drake:

Yeah, yes, please, let's leave the holy in and take the perfection out in saying there may be missteps, but there is a way to quickly redirect or to hear that voice of love. But often we do that in the presence of somebody else who knows the voice, who can recognize the voice, and so you know, attending to our own hospitality, offering hospitality to others, but being physically in the presence of someone who has heard the voice. One of the things that you offer, shelley, on Wednesday evenings is a digital table for people to come and practice and hear the voice, and that might be one of the ways that people can find someone who can talk about the Holy Spirit and about what it means to know and intuit the language of spirit and to trust ourselves to hear her voice and then become conduits of this voice when we speak, when we serve, when we create. All of these things call us to a deeper holy, to a more intimate connection with the very source of love.

Shelly Shepherd:

Thank you for that shout out yeah, it's a beautiful place to, I think, to connect right without judgment, and to practice. You know, Wednesdays practice the presence.

Heather Drake:

Well, it allowed you and I to meet. We met over another conference, but we really formed a friendship over the table and over this online community that you've created to be able to say let's talk about the things that we're hearing spirit, say, or the places, and I want to be careful with how we say we're hearing the voice, not necessarily audibly, hearing it in our bodies, learning to hear the voice with the way that the presence feels when she's with us and we're alone in the car and a good music, a good song is on or something, or when we're in the place of presence. What does it feel like on your skin? And so when I use the word hear, I do want to talk about an embodied hearing, or you hear it and you feel it in your inner parts you know.

Heather Drake:

And so to be able to say, hearing the voice above the noise, there is all kinds of frequencies and vibrations that are happening all around us but to be able to center ourselves in that stillness and listen for the sound you know through I was thinking about all the ways that I can hear the sound, and you know through the playing of drums, because my tradition I don't necessarily hear a lot of holy in the drums. I have Native American friends who, if they want to get into worship, they start a drumming circle. That's not necessarily for me, except for there are some tones like on the toms, when a certain drumming is played, I I recognize it and so in that recognition I find the holy and I think very often that happens to us in places where we recognize the spirit has already been. We then become aware or, um, like the pilot light is lit for us and going, oh, the presence is here, is here, where is she? How do I listen, how do I hear?

Shelly Shepherd:

And this becomes an enchanting or a call to us to say come and see, come and see taste and see, yeah and I have to insert this right here, because you and I have had this conversation at table and maybe even on some of these podcasts, where you know I have this strong compass, inner compass that the spirit is not talked about enough in church, in scripture, et cetera, et cetera, right Like, we hear about God and Jesus all the time, but spirit is, yeah, we don't know quite what to do with her. And so one of my hopes is that in these conversations that you and I are having here on these podcasts and at table, that we are making room for her presence, we're making room for this demonstration, either in silence or when we're, you know, being hospitable in your words, or sharing a meal, or whatever that looks like, we begin to recognize that she is present.

Heather Drake:

We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend, and if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionistheologycom.

Shelly Shepherd:

You were giving us some good information there just a second ago and it reminds me of these definitions for voice, like this audible voice, right. And so voice comes from this Latin root, vox, v-o-x, which means to speak or call, right. And noise comes from the Latin meaning, the Latin root meaning nausea, with a subtext to quarrel, right. And so if you're in this tension between hearing the voice or hearing the noise, you clearly Right, just in these two, these, these two Latin root understandings that that voice is this speak or call, and noise is this quarreling. So much of noise creates nausea.

Shelly Shepherd:

When you're listening to the voice, when you're hearing the voice, you're experiencing the voice and, to your point, not audible necessarily, maybe for some it is, and, to your point, not audible necessarily, maybe for some it is. It's like this meaning that it gives to us is wow, I want to talk with you, I want to commune with you, I want to sit with you, I want to be near you, right, right and just that emphasis is sometimes in a day's, 24-hour day period. It's like, wow, I just want to sit here with you. Let me just. Let me just put my pen down and my to-do list down and my phone down, for let me just do this for 10 minutes. Wow, where will that take us.

Heather Drake:

Well, when you say that I am convinced that's part of the reason of the story of the two sisters who are with Jesus and Mary sitting at his feet, tell me, tell me more, come on. And Martha, who's like? There is work to be done. There are sandwiches to be made, there is dishes to be washed. And not only that. I think there is a cultural role to be played. Is really what is being said? Martha also is a follower, martha, you know, or whatever you know that.

Shelly Shepherd:

Yeah, it's not a good or bad. It's not a good Martha or bad, mary, thank you. Thank you, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Heather Drake:

There is a cultural role to be played, there are things that must be done, and Jesus himself, as it is recorded. So perhaps this is what he said, but as it is recorded, he said Martha, there's many things that you're worried about, but Mary has chosen the better thing and the invitation is which was time? Yes, right, and the presence, which was time, and presence In that moment.

Shelly Shepherd:

Now later Mary may have jumped up and done dishes right, but in that particular moment he was calling forth in her that presence.

Heather Drake:

And I think what has happened is a fear of maybe becoming lazy or not getting things done has in some ways inserted itself into this idea of you will not be productive if you just sit in the presence. And so this idea of allowing ourselves to unlearn you have heard it said. And so this idea of allowing ourselves to unlearn you have heard it said you must be busy 20 hours a day or your entire to-do list must get checked off. As opposed to her unlearning culture that said that she had to participate in this way and accepting Jesus's invitation into life a different way, into a full thriving in her humanity, into regaining a dignity that culture had stripped from her. And so this is our invitation today Do we find a way to practice sitting in the presence of love that allows us an entry, a portal into the holy, into a divine therapy, into a reordering of our hearts, of our thoughts, in the presence of God, allowing us to join the creativity of spirit and what spirit is up to in the world today, and allowing us to join and connect with our true source? It is to me the beautiful hope of like an instrument that's being tuned. You know, there is something that is the instrument in.

Heather Drake:

In our particular scenario, in the band we tune to the piano and the piano plays it, and the guitar is tuned to it, and the bass tunes to it, and we tuned it. And so what are you tuning your heart to? What are you turning yourself to? Now, then the piano is actually tuned by a man who comes and has a brilliant ear for this, and so I know the authority of how that piano is tuned and I know it's recently tuned, and so I think very often, what, if you are tuning your life to something that is actually all off key, then the music that you play is going to be noise.

Heather Drake:

But if we can recognize the tuning of our hearts and I really feel like that's what the centering prayer does for us, or this entering into the mystical does for us, like so that we can experience all of what is offered to us in this lifespan that we have been given, however wrong it is, but that we would be a people who could eat and appreciate the flavors and the tastes of every good thing, that we would be a people who could appreciate and hear the music that is all around us, in nature, in the creation of other humans that are making music in the way that the breeze flows through the tree and is some type of music. Can we be the people who appreciate the sunset and the sunrise, and stars and the way that the green is turning now into spring, into this brilliant, beautiful shades of life? Can we be a people who are resurrected into flourishing? I think the answer is yes, and it comes through little steps like paying attention to the quiet, centering ourselves, returning to love.

Heather Drake:

You mentioned in the beginning of this conversation about following the practice of Mary Magdalene into coming back to the source of love, into anointing ourselves. This anointing, this, calling ourselves into service, setting aside the sacred. These are the kind of things that will allow us to embody a faith that Jesus offered to us that says this is how the world is changed, this is how the kingdom comes, this is how what is done in heaven is actually done on earth.

Shelly Shepherd:

Yeah, heather, and sometimes it's just a matter of unplugging our ears, right, like our ears have become so full that even in our listening, um, that even in our listening it can't get through. So sometimes it's just we got. We have to figure out how to unplug them, um, and and and and allow this. Maybe silence does that, maybe stillness does that helps to unplug and allow spirit and you, you know, the spirit of God to enter, because I think it has to enter through the ear, right, this listening is important, the stillness is important and you mentioned Thomas Keating's allegiance to divine therapy a minute ago and he really teaches that this is a psychological healing, that this listening and the centering and the stillness it can even heal sometimes the greatest trauma, the most abusive addictions, you know, behaviors that are not serving us right.

Shelly Shepherd:

He has laid this down for mystics and sages and people like ourselves that are on this journey to experience the holy in divine, feminine, sacred ways. You know, that need to be healed from patriarchy, that need to be healed from church trauma, that need to be healed from, you know, abusive marriages or relationships Like this is this is divine therapy, um, and I love that word, I love how he has crafted that word for us to uh, to grab hold of, you know, in our lives, um, and then move towards the space that you just described so eloquently about hearing and sensing and smelling right and tasting the divine Because, ultimately, I think, all of those are embodied practices of hearing.

Heather Drake:

All of those are embodied practices of hearing when we smell something, it reminds us, brings to memory our olfactory glands bring to memory things that have happened, experiences in even other worldly things and things that are beyond our remembering, and things that are beyond are remembering, and so I appreciate so much the practice of the centering of the stillness that heightens the other senses that we have and invites us into a more attentive or attuned place of saying this is what it means to be fully human and fully divine.

Shelly Shepherd:

And it seems too simple too.

Heather Drake:

It seems too simple, but isn't that the way of love? You're right. We have been given a complicated set of rules and said this is what it's like to follow. And here we are saying if you appreciate the good food, acknowledge the friends that are around you, drink a good glass of coffee, a good cup of coffee or a good glass of wine, and now you're going to hear God. I think that you're going to hear God in a way like we're talking about, not just with audible ears, but with our souls, with our hearts, with the center of us, with this body that is so incredibly wonderfully made, that the vibrations and the energies around us speak to us, allow us to imagine and to have greater thoughts and to again live this life that Jesus invited us to, to think a different way, and these practices.

Shelly Shepherd:

To trust that.

Heather Drake:

Yes, thank you for that. Trusting that goodness will lead us into more goodness, that love will lead us further into love. That reconnecting to the source I mean we have to do that with everything that we know in this world that we currently live in, in 2024, is everything needs updates, and so you have to reconnect it so we can have the update. And I'm thinking this is true for myself in the stillness. I am reconnecting. In the stillness I am reconnecting so I can attune myself to the voice of the one who is speaking. And here is the update that I so badly need for this patch and this virus that has come through. Somebody has corrupted this file and I need a redo. And I need that stillness to say I am loved, I am beloved, I am part of the goodness that God has planned for the whole world.

Heather Drake:

Since the beginning of time, god had us in mind and had intended that we would be made whole and holy by his love. And then we were just talking about this portion of the text on Sunday where it said before time, god had planned good works for us to do. There was an invitation into this beauty that God was creating, and he said you know, and I'm going to get everybody in on it. You know, everybody gets to create this beauty, and so what an incredible invitation to be artists, the artists that we all know that we are at some level Maybe it's not with paint but with music or the way you display flowers, or just your presence but that we would all own our own artistry and say this is our offering at the beautiful table that God is creating, this is our gift for the flourishing of all mankind. This is our gift for the flourishing of all mankind.

Shelly Shepherd:

This is how we're contributing to the music and how we are not participating in the noise. I wonder if I can close today with this version from Hadevich of Brabant. A mystic, she says, and this was translated into English by Jane Kirshfield all things are too small to hold me. I am so vast in the infinite. I reach for the uncreated. I have touched it. It undoes me Wider than wide. Everything else is too narrow. You know this well, you who are also there.

Heather Drake:

It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheologycom.