The Expansionist Podcast
Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake invite you to listen in on a continuing conversation about expanding spirituality, the Divine Feminine, and the transforming impact of living attuned to Wisdom, Spirit and Love.
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The Expansionist Podcast
The Wisdom Of Silence
Embark on a transformative exploration of spirituality with us, as we uncover the untold stories of women mystics who defied the confines of patriarchal traditions to connect with the divine. Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake delve into the teachings of Mary Magdalene's gospel, revealing the presence of the divine within each of us. This narrative is not just a tale from the past; it's the heartbeat of our spiritual pursuits, guiding us to trust the wisdom and love that forms the foundation of our faith.
The whispers of stillness and the power of silence await you in our conversation about how these practices have shaped the spiritual insight of revered figures like Jesus, Elijah, and Mary. We examine the elemental language of wisdom, the role of fire, earth, water, and wind, and discuss how Hindu teachings on conserving vital energy through silence can lead to profound mental clarity and spiritual expansion. Through this episode, we invite you to embrace the quiet, meditative space that can reorder your thoughts and connect you more deeply with the spiritual.
As we delve into the mystical practice of Christian meditation, we consider the paradox of stillness as a dynamic state of being loved and connected. By reflecting on the anticipation of the Holy Spirit in the story of Pentecost, we understand waiting and listening as gateways to personal encounters with the divine. Let your heart's unique language guide you to experiences that transcend ordinary understanding. We invite you to join our reverent quest for spiritual depth at expansionistheology.com, where you can explore more content that illuminates the path to an enriched, joyous faith journey.
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit and love. Hello Shelley, hey Heather, how are you today? I am well, thank you, excited to be here in a conversation with you.
Speaker 2:Oh, heather, how are you today? I am well, thank you, excited to be here in a conversation with you. Oh, absolutely. And this conversation is, I think, burning a hole in our minds. I don't know, but it seems like a powerful, powerful, expansionist sort of way to think about love, spirit and wisdom.
Speaker 2:So I'm excited to have this conversation with you today, as we dive into a space with women mystics in particular the women mystics, and look at their insight, their experience, their traversing at a time during a patriarchal system that I can't even imagine. I think about the one that you and I are in and what we've grown up in and we've endured and we have survived through 15th centuries that these women just really carved out their own spiritual expansion, even beyond the church and beyond the priests and beyond the monks, and we're often encouraged by some of the men within their orders or within their convents or within their friendships, to expand. So I'm excited about this today. Thank you for wanting to be here and talk about this Well you know for sure that this kind of conversation enlivens me.
Speaker 1:It is this beautiful thing and I was thinking about. Maybe the listener hears the word like mystic, and maybe it is not something as part of the language that they regularly use and this idea of mysticism or entering the mystery, I think, is woven into all of us. We do understand this at some level, but maybe the language wasn't there. You and I have similar growing up patterns in church and in a faith, and I grew up in a Pentecostal church, in a church where the things of the Spirit were spoken of freely. People's expression of how the Spirit moved in their life was talked about. People learned and had many conversations about Spirit, and the Spirit moved in different ways with different people, and so it became commonplace for us to listen for the voice of spirit, for us to watch for spirits moving.
Speaker 1:Then, as we grew up, we moved into other spaces where the spirit was not as well spoken of or not even aware of, and so one of the things that I think that our intention is, through conversation and through the work that we're doing, is to expand the vocabulary of spirit, to expand the understanding of spirit, and then to even maybe whet some appetites or to excite some people to say, wait, wait.
Speaker 1:Can I look for spirits moving in my life or in the life of those around me? And I think the answer is a resounding yes. She is so beautiful and spirit is so trustworthy, even when, maybe, institutions have failed us, people have failed us, but spirit is so gentle, so good, so full of wisdom and, ultimately, love. That is the actual anchor and hope for all of our faith. And so, in the time that we have together, I hope that some of the things that we can talk about, even if somebody has never heard it before, could be inspiring and say perhaps this is something that I could look for, or I could practice and find an entry place into the river that comes from God and that is for the healing of the nations.
Speaker 2:You bring an interesting piece and maybe we could linger here for just a few minutes to kind of maybe demythicize the word mystical or mysticism, right, and I think you also bring out this point of growing up in traditions where people may have looked at us as, oh, that kind of spirit is not for me yes absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's kind of woo-woo or it's kind of out there. I could never really see myself or allow myself to be lost in a spiritual experience. I think the place that we may be in our world is when we want to hear the voice, when we want to hear spirit's voice. Maybe we're more attuned because we're running out of answers. The church doesn't have the answer that we thought she once held right. Politics doesn't have the answers. Our government doesn't have the answers. You know, maybe our relationships have failed. They don't have the answers. Maybe our relationships have failed, they don't have the answers.
Speaker 2:And so we begin looking outside of ourselves or listening for this attunement or this voice, in such a way that we're seeking spirit, but we don't know that it's spirit because, well, that sounds like a myth or that sounds too mysterious. So talk to us a little bit about how, really, this space of allowing what was already birthed in us to become more known, using Mary Magdalene, using Mary Magdalene's chapter right there out of her gospel, it's like it is within us. Spirit is within her, it's already there. So how do we connect that and make it less mystical and remove the myth of, oh, that's only for the sacredness or the holiness right. That's not for me as an individual.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not possible for us to make it less mystical, because we are talking about a faith that we are invited into that since the beginning. We are talking about a beautiful story, a better story, a bigger story, that there is so much magic still in the world and that even the mystery that we see, we're invited into a greater mystery still. And the mystery is this divine love, is this singleness, this oneness that Jesus was even saying. You know, as you were talking about Mary, when Jesus said the kingdom is so close to you, it's even in your mouth, you know, it's right here, it's within you. And so what is it like to be blind and deaf your whole life to the kingdom? That is like actually around us, in us, breathing within us and so learning, allowing ourselves to be healed from, maybe things that were handed to us, scripts that were told to us, like we don't have the right or we are not capable of hearing the Spirit for ourselves, when in fact our whole bodies are trustworthy in the hearing of Spirit, and sometimes we have to learn and practice the hearing of Spirit and we have to have someone who's heard the voice of Spirit ahead of us to check in and go. How do we know this is the voice that spirit is telling us.
Speaker 1:I think one of the anchors for me that is essential when I'm hearing the voice of spirit is is it loving? If it is not loving, it is not the voice of spirit. Now, will it take courage to believe it and to do it Absolutely? Is it a risk? Absolutely, I'm not saying that the things of spirit wouldn't require us to even get past ideas that we have currently, but it's still going to be grounded in loving ourselves, in loving others, and then the proof of it is going to be in the end of following spirit, we are going to be more loving, we are going to be in the presence of more love, and so I think that's a really great check and balance for me when I'm looking at things and going.
Speaker 1:How do I learn to hear a voice that not everybody hears? How can I trust things that I believe are spirit talking to me? We have a lot of ideas about that, you and I, and I've expanded on some, and I definitely want to talk about that. But what does it look like for us to trust that if God is spirit and that's how God speaks of God's self God is a spirit, and so listening to spirit should be a part of our primary understanding of how God speaks, not just through the words of men, but through nature, through feeling, through tasting, through listening. A good piece of music can move us so much. A delicious glass of wine, or a piece of food or meal shared together with friends, these are all movements of the spirit, and so learning, particularly as women, to see that, to follow it and to embody it, that's a real gift, and that's some of the things that we want to talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's another great place to step for a minute, too, is, as women do we, or there's some context or scriptural reference to that fact, or learning that, wow, we need a man in order to balance out this thinking pattern that I'm having, out this thinking pattern that I'm having.
Speaker 2:And so there's these doctrines or these dogmas that get wrapped into. I think they impinge upon the intuitiveness and the level of trust that we have, as women, in our own bodies, so that if spirit does try to say something to us, we brush it off as, oh, I didn't hear that Right. And then later we look back on it and it's like, wow, that must have been spirit, or that must have been my intuition guiding me or warning me, or, you know, giving me a. You know, there's a yellow flag on the field. Don't, you know, don't move in that direction, Don't, you know, don't move in that direction. And so you know your point of as, as women, you know, is this harder for us to grapple with in, in allowing ourselves to hear the voice in a clear you know, with, with clarity that gives us confidence that we can trust her in our lives, in our relationships, in our decisions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I only have experience as a woman that I know now. I know that I am now, but and I would say that we are not disadvantaged I'd say we are advantaged, firstly because we have wombs and this idea of you know, since we are very young, there is another whole life giving cycle within us. There is an emptying and a refilling and a fertility and a death and a resurrection, and our bodies are continually broken and given and calling them blessed. But do we live in cultural situations that tell us that we should dismiss the voice of our own body, our own intuitions? Yes, but you and I are here today asking for just a little bit of time to be able to say there's healing available, there is wholeness that we can all walk into, there is a power that we can reclaim in our feminine divinity to be able to say we are made in the very image of God. And when God looked at us, god said very good. God said blessed and holy.
Speaker 1:And even in the incarnation, when God's plan is that Jesus would be brought into the world, that there would be this visual representation of how God operates, and it would be through the life of Jesus, god tapped a young woman and said this is what we've come up with, this plan Are you in?
Speaker 1:And she said yes, talk about a mystic to follow. She said yes, talk about a mystic to follow. Mary, the mother of Jesus, is a bright guide for us to be able to look at someone who, again culturally not advantaged, who heard the voice of angels, who had known scripture, but who also recognized the voice of God when it came to her and said this is my plan, would you like to participate? I think one of the first things that we need to remind ourselves of is that we do have capacity to hear with not just our ears, and one of the ways that we practice that is through our communing in nature and in the practice of holding silence, sitting in silence, being still in the silence, listening for nothing, but listening for the grace that comes and the grace that heals us in these silent practices. Really is this entryway, this portal, this threshold into something so incredibly holy and something so incredibly sacred and needful right now for our own healing, but also for the healing of the world.
Speaker 2:And, as we you know, peer into and read the mail from these women mystics that has been captured and given to us, their stories. Silence, I believe, was one of the first steps for each of them is finding this time and carving it out in a way that you know might look different today than it did for Julian of Norwich or Catherine of Siena or any of these other ones that we're experiencing their depth in these practices. But I think all mystical or monastic experiences begin with this space of silence.
Speaker 1:We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend, and if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionistheologycom.
Speaker 2:And sometimes it feels awkward or it feels difficult just to be silent and be still. But I think one of the things that we're learning from that is nothing could happen in that moment or those minutes. However long 10, 15, or 20 minutes however much silence you need, at that time, nothing may happen. Nothing may be said or heard, and typically it's not. It's somehow later permeated in our thinking or in our relationships or even in our spiritual practices. It shows up in different ways. What is the bandwidth of that Heather Like?
Speaker 1:what is the strength of that silence. I think one of the things that happens and again, I don't know all of that, but one of the things that happens is that clarity comes to us when we allow things to sit in silence. And again, sitting in silence is something that we see, the practice of Jesus, we see the practice of Elijah, we see the practice of Mary. I mean, over and over again, people that lead us into mystical experiences or into the practice of communing with spirit, call us to places of solitude and silence, and that can become overwhelming if that's not a practice that you have intentionally cultivated. I think one of the best ways to even enter that practice is through nature. Before you sit alone in a room with yourself, you know, going out and spending time among the trees, among the flowers, and listening to what they speak to you. That is a practice into.
Speaker 1:A lot of our religious devotion has told us that what to be devoted means, or look like, means, a lot of talking or a lot of listening to someone else talk, as opposed to the inner silence and paying attention to those things and what it can bring to us.
Speaker 1:And so the scope of it, I believe, is so. Healing is in fact, a type of rewiring for us or reordering our thoughts, and in those places of silence where we sit in the presence, or stand in the presence of a loving Jesus or God. And that's why, again, to me, nature is such a beautiful invitation into the stillness, but sometimes it feels like a real like. If you're a busy mom, when do you have time to sit in silence? Unless you make time, unless you recognize the holy in it, unless you recognize the value or the beauty that could be in this time of silence and what it can actually do for your soul. And so I think that one of the things that you and I are purporting is this beautiful invitation into something more, into the deeper magic, into allowing ourselves to trust our intuition as women, but to sit in the silence and allow the work of spirit in ways that we can't even frame or recognize.
Speaker 2:And there's been much written about this topic through monastic practices around centering, prayer and silence, that maybe we can add some of those in the show notes, some links to some of that. The other thing that I want to bring out here the Hindu teachers maintain that there's this excessive, that excessive speech dissipates prana, which in their term, means breath or vitality, which, in their term, means breath or vitality. And so, if we look at that, there's all this talking going on. There isn't any room to allow this breath, this vitality, to enter, because there hasn't been enough silence. Right, it needs silence in order to be deposited into, enough silence. Right, it needs silence in order to be deposited into.
Speaker 2:And they say that when we are silent, they teach that prana collects like water in a catch pool and meditation deepens in the process. This beautiful image of it just like pouring into right um, that that silence has this ability to, to pour into um, into our hearts or into our souls or into our spirits, in ways that it's captured and used in some way or another. And again, they use this image of water, and you and I have been talking about how the elements are a foundational language of wisdom and spirit the fire, earth, water and wind that are in nature. We're going to have more conversations around that. We're going to have more conversations around that. The nature just has this beautiful way of gathering us into these places of solitude.
Speaker 1:Only if we'll listen to the invitation, only if we'll listen, because we could be in nature and miss everything. And so I think one of the things that you and I are asking is is it possible to learn to cultivate, to learn to gather the wisdoms and allow them to influence the way that we live, to influence the way that we hear, allow wisdom to influence our devotion and our spiritual expanding? And I think the answer is yes, if we will just even take a small step in these practices of meditation, in the practices of hope. I was thinking about meditation when you first mentioned it.
Speaker 1:I was thinking there might be people who oppose it or who push back against it, and there's a psalm that one of the writers said may the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, o God, my rock and my redeemer. And I love that rock is also right there in who that writer is addressing, because we recognize the beauty and the poetry that is in there. We're not addressing the rock literally, but we are looking at all the aspects of that rock and saying this is who God is this foundational, this steady, this build upon type of thing. But we meditate, whether we know it or not, we meditate and we worry or we do these other things. So paying attention to where we meditate, how we meditate, that's an essential entrance into the mystical.
Speaker 2:Well, there's even a greater Christian tradition. If you want to lay one down, that's an essential entrance into the mystical. Well, there's even a greater Christian tradition, if you want to lay one down, and I think it's near Psalm 46. Be still and know right. Be still and know that I am God, and so if that particular passage says for me to be still, and then I can know right more about who God is, who spirit is, Okay, and I don't disagree with you.
Speaker 1:But what does it mean to be still? I mean, in our culture we are just constantly moving and this practice of returning to the belovedness, where we can sit. We're not judged by productivity, we can just embrace the stillness. And I think on the other side of stillness we're empowered to do great things, we're strengthened to do things beyond even what we thought we're capable of. So the stillness is not a relinquishing ourselves to nothingness, it is returning to that original source we are loved.
Speaker 2:We are connected and obviously we're talking about a tradition in Christian meditation in particular, since that's our experience and training and upbringing is Christian meditation through centering prayer. And there is a difference between centering prayer and say something like transcendental meditation, for example, because in Christian meditation your focus is spiritual, right, that's our intention, that's the goal is in the silence and in the stillness that we are making room for spirit to pour in. Right, and, like you said, we have to get still, we have to get quiet enough in the rat race to experience this. And I think, if we're going to learn anything from the mystics, the women, mystics that we're learning about and that we're following, and hopefully't overemphasize the importance of learning to get still and learning to get silent and you mentioned this other passage about the rock right, there's nature, again, right, there's the earth.
Speaker 2:When I hear rock, I think of earth, I think of sediment, the earth. When I hear rock, I think of earth, I think of sediment. And so for some, it might be that they need to be by stream in order to hear this language. For another person, they might need to be on a mountaintop to hear this language and to sense this spirit. For someone else, they might experience it by a campfire, or be mesmerized by this glow of a candlelight, or for someone else it's the wind from a sailboat, right that they're out on a water. So I do believe that this experience will be different for everyone. It's not going to be the same. We won't hear the language the same. It'll speak to us in the language of our heart, and that's a very different kind of practice of getting still is being able to listen to that particular language.
Speaker 1:And when you talk about language and languages of the heart and hearing spirit, it draws my attention to Pentecost, where the Spirit comes, the Spirit enables everyone to hear, will hear the voice of spirit in a language that I understand and preparing our hearts for that. I mean, even before Pentecost came, Jesus said everybody get together and wait and the spirit will come.
Speaker 2:Wait for well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think in that waiting, it is also in the practice of sitting in stillness, and that's a very sometimes uncomfortable thing for us to practice, for us to do, especially if we've been taught to move our entire life. That's the most important thing. But I think that one of the things that would hinder the most is if you have an idea that you are in the presence of a God who judges you or who is angry at you. I don't know that I could sit comfortably there, but to sit in the presence of love, to sit in the presence of a God adoring you, to sit in the presence of God who is so close, as close as breath, to you, not in a way that you're going to be judged or punished in any way, but that this is an invitation into this gift, into this other way of living, into a deeper magic still.
Speaker 2:And again, heather, I think we have to ask this question that we start listening for the voice when there are no more answers for our questions, when things have troubled us for a long time, or there hasn't been a resolution or there doesn't seem to be a resolve. In the ways and in the patterns or in the practices that we have used, it's almost like we're ready to hear the voice afresh and anew, and I think that's part of what you and I are trying to communicate in an expansionist sort of way is. You know, we've heard it said one way right. We've heard it said throughout scripture that this is how spirit moves, but we were not always introduced to sitting and waiting in the presence.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, but we can introduce that and maybe people grew up in waiting because in the Pentecostal tradition that I was taught in there was this idea of tarrying, of sitting and waiting, but it wasn't always in silence, it was in a lot of protest, which I think, for most of us as Protestants, we are very used to the protest part about our faith, which I think, for most of us as Protestants, we are very used to the protest part about our faith. And instead of this protest, sitting in alignment, in stillness, in love, in holiness, I listened to the invitation and even the hope that in Jesus's first miracle and we're talking about mysticism and talking about you know, maybe our place in becoming amateur mystics in you know and hopefully finding….
Speaker 2:Paramystics like… yeah, and hopefully finding….
Speaker 1:Marjorie Kemp, being able to see the presence of God in everything, recognizing the sacred that the very first miracle that we know of that Jesus offers is turning the water to wine, and for many of us, we've been drinking the water so long that we're saying isn't there anything more? And, shelly, you and I are saying there is, there is a joy. There is a joy, there is a richness, there is something of a heightened experience in our spirituality. That is possible, but we have to drink this way, we have to follow and, of course, mary, we're following the mother of Jesus where she says do everything he tells you to do. It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionistheologycom.