The Expansionist Podcast
Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake invite you to listen in on a continuing conversation about expanding spirituality, the Divine Feminine, and the transforming impact of living attuned to Wisdom, Spirit and Love.
#expansionisttheology #spirituality #spirit #spiritual #wisdom #love #Sophia #feminist #theology #community #table #expansion #fifthwaylove #deconstruction #Jesus #annointing #marymagdalene #feminism #Jesuschrist #holyspirit #women #feminine
The Expansionist Podcast
Spotlight On The Women: Mary, Elizabeth and Anna
Have you ever considered the true significance of women in the story of Christ's birth? How two women, Mary and Elizabeth, brought a sense of belonging and community to the narrative? Join us, Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake, as we embark on a journey through the Advent season, spotlighting the often-underestimated roles of Mary and Elizabeth. We discuss their bond and how their story exemplifies the divine's ability to work through even the most unexpected individuals.
Imagine being a young girl given an immense task by an angel. What if that mission was to carry and birth the Messiah? We delve into Mary's encounter with Gabriel, the conversations she might have had with her cousin Elizabeth, and their shared experience of divine interventions. As we examine Mary's profound acceptance of her role and her powerful words in the Magnificat, we gain a deeper understanding of the feminine spirit of God and the call for all of us to participate with God in shaping the world.
In the often chaotic path of growth and creation, wouldn't it be empowering to embrace confusion and messiness as a necessary part of the journey? This understanding can lead to unique perspectives and co-creation with God. We also shine a light on the ancient texts of Mary and Elizabeth and the spiritual lessons we can learn from them. By the end of our journey, we hope to reveal how each individual plays an irreplaceable role in the divine narrative. So, join us, and let's together learn, grow and appreciate the incredible influence of women in the life of Jesus and the world.
#expansionisttheology #spirituality #spirit #spiritual #wisdom #love #Sophia #feminist #theology #community #table #expansion #fifthwaylove #deconstruction #Jesus #annointing #marymagdalene #feminism #Jesuschrist #holyspirit #women #feminine
Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake.
Speaker 1:In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit and love.
Speaker 1:I am so looking forward to this conversation that we have been having, and so this is not a one and done kind of listen in. This is a conversation, I think, that's evolving with us, that we keep coming back to and talking about, and it has so much life. I was listening to my boys talk about something and they were having a conversation, and one of them said there's so much meat on this bone and I was thinking there is a reason to keep coming back to this conversation, to keep coming back and say there is something to be had here, and the conversation that we're having right now is the Advent season, but the conversation we're having is about Mary, the mother of Jesus, elizabeth, and we throw in a couple of other women or highlight them, look at them, but the prophetess, anna, who is in the temple at the time, and again Anna, her mother. I'm sure that she had a lot to say about all the good things that were happening with Mary as well.
Speaker 1:So, just the voice of women and what this part of the season and the story tell us to do and give us some direction for, and the curiosity that comes with having women come to the forefront of a story that maybe they've only played a supporting role in for a very long time, so us being able to say hey look at their contribution.
Speaker 1:Is it possible? Spirit is up to what Spirit has been doing since the very beginning, with rooting over the chaos. Perhaps our world is also chaos and Holy Spirit is rooting over women who are gifted to bring maybe more light, more love and the kingdom that promises. This is what the good looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very exciting to think about, and particularly right now, I think at Advent, when so much of the story is pointing us to what's coming. You and I are taking this time to talk about what's before the coming right. What happened here between these two women and their relationship, what did they have in common or what was happening in their lives or in their worlds, and why did Mary run over to see Elizabeth? And what's this connection, and maybe even understanding part of their connection, can help us understand the connection that God wants us to have with others today. What does it mean to be in a community or to have a place like what you and I are trying to create here, where women can come and talk about things that make sense and things that don't make sense, Like why would a 14-year-old be pregnant?
Speaker 2:Well, heather's going to tell us that. Why did that happen? How did that happen? And then, why did Mary leave Elizabeth when she was about to have John the Baptist? Like? There's so many questions right that we are curious about that, we wonder about, and yet, at the same time, maybe we're missing the nuance of what God was doing with women in the beginning of the story, and I think that's maybe what we could pay attention to more. I was like this story the Christ story started with a 14-year-old right and her cousin 80-something 87 or 88-year-old. So what was God up to in getting the wisdom of Elizabeth and this uncertainty of Mary together? Like I think that's something beautiful that we can unpack a little bit.
Speaker 1:I love that idea that you're presenting. That takes us to a place in. It Also resonates with me in the repeating of how valuable, how holy, how good it is to have longings, and sometimes we can be not just dismissive but we can be almost resentful or aggravated at our own longings. And here in this story we see the fulfillment of some longings and then we also see almost the birthing of new longings. And so I would like for us, when we look at this story and have a conversation around it, to really highlight or focus the longing.
Speaker 1:And I think the longing that I see here is a longing to be connected to the bigger story, not just a story of this one person, but how this story is the story not just of God but of people and how women play such an essential role in creating community and belonging and what we do to offer, belonging to each other, what we do to offer belonging to the work, of the spirit that someone is experiencing. And it may not look anything like we assumed it would. I mean I love in this story. You know, for millennia people have been asking for a deliverer and now the deliverer is going to come through this young girl. I mean that doesn't seem like a really smart move.
Speaker 1:Let's you know like I think that if I were writing the story and I would just put it with somebody who has a lot more influence or a lot more practice, and here spirit is willing to take someone unrehearsed, someone who doesn't have a lot of natural resources, and say that's okay, the Holy Spirit is going to come upon you, come alongside of you come with you.
Speaker 1:And then I'm listening to that and I'm thinking that's really what Jesus promised to the church, to all of us, not just to Mary. The Holy Spirit will be with you, given to you. You will have the paraclete, a helper, a guide. And so what does that look like for the incarnation to happen in each one of us? How do we carry the good in us, how do we allow it to form in us? And then how do we say where are the women in my life who are testifying? Yeah, this is the work of the Lord, this is good stuff.
Speaker 2:Those are big words. Those are big words. Paraclete paraclete is a big word. Break that one down. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's in that word in the Greek, in the original text language. There means helper, but not helper like hamburger helper, like you know, one who is actually has all the strength, one who comes prepared not just to do battle for you, but whatever you need. That person is alongside. And so the Holy Spirit being called that gives us this understanding that it is the promise, Emmanuel, God with us, God in the form or in the idea of spirit, shows up and is with us, and we're not alone in those things. And so when I listen to the words of Jesus, that who says to the church as it's being birthed, I'm going to give you my spirit.
Speaker 1:My spirit is going to be with you always, you're going to have everything you need. So what does that look like for me, as a woman who is looking for God, or looking for God to be birthed in me, or looking for God to be birthed in our world or, you know, still crying out for deliverance from the oppression that is happening all around us? Well then, I'm listening, going the same spirit that was given to Mary as given to us. And then what is our responsibility then? To hear that and go yes, you have my yes, you know, let it be unto me, according to your word.
Speaker 1:Where does my agreement come into the play of what God wants to do in the world and what he's birthing through us? But I really see this story as so inspiring, so much an entry point for all of us to find our place and say this new thing, maybe that God is doing in the world. It may not look anything like the old ways of worship, the old ways of living this out, you know, anchored in the ancient but absolutely connected to the now. That's, that's a place of a lot of energy and of really good feelings with me.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and thank you for unpacking that paraclete word. You know, I think sometimes we get, we know what things mean, but maybe people listening don't always know, so thank you for that.
Speaker 1:Thank you for calling me out on that. Sometimes, when you, when you're in a, in a culture, so much we forget about the fact that people don't know Incarnation is a language, it's a big word too.
Speaker 2:Incarnation. You know that's a yes, that's a loaded word, but I want to go back to Christ formed in us. Yeah, I want to go back to this place of you were talking about the spirit in filled Mary. So you and I, I think you and I believe that spirit is feminine primarily.
Speaker 1:Yes, so I think that if you read the text, there is that yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's support of that and there's people that find, you know there's not support for that. So you know there's, there's cancer all around us. But so help, help me understand how this feminine spirit moves into this feminine body to create this masculine teacher that we know is the Christ.
Speaker 1:What a beautiful question, because even that is so incredible. So think of us, each one of us, particularly as women. We are made in the image of God, and the image of God is not gendered. And so this beautiful femininity, especially in the fact that spirit, every time we see that spirit is represented in the ancient texts. It's nurturing, it's loving, it's encouraging, it's helping, it's supporting, it's healing, it's restoring such beautiful language.
Speaker 2:Anointing.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so this spirit that is anointing comes into Mary's body. And I'm not going to say that I understand how the mystery happens, but I love the idea that it is feminine upon feminine and it's anointed feminine that comes and says this original birth, this original womb gives Mary, this womb that then becomes this place where I submit to you humbly, but with a lot of oomph, that Jesus comes, not through an oppressive masculine, toxic masculine seed, but into womanhood again, and this invitation, that the divine feminine comes and says we're going to reshape this, we're going to start, and we're going to start with this, with this healing, this nurturing everything. We see Jesus actually do, this being in the shape of the spirit, in the shape of Mary. And so this is where we start from, and then of course, we see, even as the spirit comes upon Jesus, that how expanded that is. But that, to me, is such a beautiful picture that it's not just a handing down of more pain, more trauma, more abuse, it's. Let's begin again. Let's rewrite this symphony.
Speaker 2:Yes, and such an amazing thank you for that. The the drawing fourth of that remembrance, right, and what that means, I think, for us as women, and in part of the part of the beauty of recognizing that the feminine spirit of God, you know, is, is beginning this journey with Mary, the mother of Jesus. It is a place that makes this conversation in Advent so amazing, right, like we get to tell this story over and over and over, but it's almost, like, heather, that we have not heard this story in a long time, right, and maybe people that are listening to this podcast with us maybe they've never heard that the spirit was feminine, that that activity, that new way, that new infilling, that anointing that will show up, you know, years and years later, that even get to to you and I, in this understanding, began with Mary, the mother of Jesus. Like that is a huge for me. That is, that's a huge transformation and a huge shift from there's these three guys hanging out somewhere in the cosmos and decide to just to drop into Mary. That's a different story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think we have to. Well, we don't have to. We're invited to allow ourselves to see, maybe, light where light hasn't been, and to hear a story that is being told as a better story, to re-enchant the text, to allow the spirit to speak through the text. Because I'm with you, I've heard this story since I was a very young girl and the story centers the men and in the third act we allow Mary to come in. But really, if we look at the story, I mean it actually happens in the very beginning with Eve, this understanding that God is pulling a piece of God's own self out of God, from this feminine part. This femininity that we look at is in no way second class, it is in no way less than it is as equal to a part of God as the masculine is. But when we continue, through our humanity, to elevate, to oppress, to form a hierarchy or and then even the patriarchy, out of that warm men are consistently at the top and in their pushing this idea forward, how it continues to oppress women, I see what a beautiful intersection here.
Speaker 1:The Holy Spirit comes and just puts reset and says we're gonna do this again. Can we talk about that? The reset button. Yeah, fully human, fully divine reset. And it's not this kingdom that we're being offered a place in, a belonging to God's good kingdom on the earth. Jesus came and showed us what God looked like because we had gotten it really wrong. And I love this invitation to say that, especially starting with this Christmas story, or with the story of Anna and with Elizabeth and with Mary, god comes in and says we're gonna set the story right and we're starting with the women, and Jesus is born, and so God is not leaving men behind, but we're still looking at this and going. We're gonna start with this other, but we're gonna start with tenderness, we're gonna start with nurture, we're gonna start with the
Speaker 1:feminine, divine. And if we call this the Holy Family and we recognize that in the Trinity the Holy Family, well, there can't just be three guys. That's not a family. So we have to look at this and go. All of this is what God is showing of God's own self, that it is not a gender, god is not a man, god is spirit and all of the beautiful variations of that fit into what God is. And then it's shown out in the world that is created around us. But there's an invitation here into mystery, into, I think, hope and wholeness.
Speaker 1:And if you've ever felt like maybe I don't know where my place would be in the story that God is writing, I'm telling you, I think there's a character here in this story in the very beginning that allows us to go. I could see my place there. Then it's not just listening to their place in the story, but then it allows me, creativity to go. Where's my place in the story that God's writing right now? What is Spirit doing right now that I'm invited into? What is the invitation to co-create and what does that look like through my strengths or the way I see the world?
Speaker 2:It's good stuff. I could just listen to you talk about it for a little time.
Speaker 1:But you're not going to just do that. You're going to just jump in. I know that sounds always easy to jump in on a moving train here, but I'm excited about this story.
Speaker 2:Yes, I can tell and I'm glad about it. I'm more than glad about it, because who is excited about it? Who in the world is excited about what the feminine spirit of God is doing and moving? I want to meet those people.
Speaker 1:We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend, and if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionisttheologycom.
Speaker 2:But can we talk for a second about the new thing that God asked Mary to do? Like, imagine in our holy imagination just for a few minutes, the angel has left and maybe there's a band of angels in my thinking. There's a group of them. There's not just Gabriel, there's people that she recognizes, that Mary has prayed to, that have maybe helped her in other ways, and they're sitting around, maybe a table, maybe a picnic bench, something, and they're talking to her about. This is how history has changed. This is how every person is going to understand their own personal salvation, their own transformation, their own move from what they thought would happen to what is possible. Can we talk about that for a little bit? Like, what are the things that this group around her? Now that she has this information? Here's what this looks like. Like, can we just imagine that as women sitting with Mary?
Speaker 1:What are these things? I think the story gives us such a beautiful entrance into what could have been happening there, just based on Mary's response. When Mary starts what we call now the Magnificat, she starts this beautiful litany that she has in response, this praise. She begins to say things like he's going to turn things upside down, where the proud are going to be the ones that are in need and the rich are going to be turned away and the poor are going to be exalted, and she begins to imagine things that are completely opposite of what is actually in effect. And she begins this beautiful. It feels like almost a not just a venting, but this expression probably. That feels to me when I read it. It feels like if you shake up something that's carbonated and then you release the top, it just comes out in this gush. And I feel, when I read that text, it feels like this is a gush, this isn't a labored over and what else can we come up with?
Speaker 2:Is that like a?
Speaker 1:bad vision casting meeting. It's like this was already inside of her the things that she saw that were wrong in the world, the things that were oppressive to people she's like. This is how it changes. This is how the lowly are exalted.
Speaker 2:This is how and that she's inspired now, like maybe she was bewildered at first with this message that she was going to have this mission in life. Right that she accepted this mission, that it was hers if she wanted to accept it. She accepts it and now she's being given a vision of maybe what is to come. So do you think she's leaving that situation, that moment, that encounter that she's just had, and she's headed over to her cousin's house to chat about this, spends a good amount of time with her three months, they say. The story says she stays three months, that they're talking about this stuff, that they're talking about these two children right, let's just keep it in perspective. Two children that are not yet born. What is the conversation? Heather, I've never had my own children. Personally, I know you've had five children. What is the conversation that these two are having at this moment? Like we get to imagine this? It's not written in the text. You're not going to find it in a canonized or a non-canonized book of literature.
Speaker 1:But I think that I love this idea that you're presenting right now, because it says to me that what are the things that I'm frustrated at? Are there places where I'm confused and bewildered, and is that an okay place to be? I think yes. There's times where nothing makes sense to us or what's presented to us feels like woefully inadequate. I mean, you and I have mentioned this before in our private conversations, but people have been praying for deliver and so to be able to say, well, you know, we're gonna do, we're gonna have babies, feels like that's more work that's what are we going with this?
Speaker 1:and I think it's, to use your words, that sticky and messy. Sticky and very messy and very needy. And I like what you're asking me as far as the question of what did they talk about? Because not only have I talked about, like the idea with my own children, but watching any child growing up is a chance to view an incarnation. I love the idea and I have four sons and a daughter but with my four sons, to be able to guide them, to mold them, to nurture them in such a way where they do appreciate the feminine, they do understand the equality, and we are an egalitarian household in the idea that all people all a l, l, meaning all are created equally, have value in each person has worth.
Speaker 1:But it's really cool to think about the things that maybe no one else has seen, that somebody else is gonna grow up and see what will be witnessed by those particular set of eyes that maybe people have been missing for a very long time, what will be created by that understanding or that Observation that has never been created before. And we're household of artists. So we like the idea that you know, exposing People to different experiences and loving experiences, nurturing experiences, experiences with lots of tenderness and kindness, what that does to open us up to the co creation of God. And so I can imagine that there was a lot of conversations about what will we do to teach them that it's not okay, you know, whatever it is that they've looked at or they've experienced, what will it, what will it be for us to teach them that, you know, even the flowers matter, even the grasses matter.
Speaker 1:What does it look like to say you know, I love the idea of the advent, listening to the songs of advent, not popular current ones, but even in the tax. You know the songs that they sing, and I'm listening all the time to marry, who says let it be unto me, according to your word. This is the song, the magnificent, that she says. Jesus gets into the garden and his prayer is Be it unto me, according to your word.
Speaker 1:That sounds exactly like his mother song and so yes, to me somewhere how many of these things that we hear In the voice, in the words that are recorded, that jesus said Are actually things that he heard from his mother, that he heard from?
Speaker 1:yeah absolutely he heard from the women in his life who said those things. And so that's, that's the beauty of the story for me, saying we don't have to wait for someone else to do something, that we each have this irreplaceable role to play, this incredible story that God is writing, and it is our eyes and our beauty, and the things that we name and the things that we see, but how we love the world, with the tenderness that is in us and how that you have me feminine voice still is heard.
Speaker 2:Yes, so beautiful and absolutely divine. I want to ask another question. I'm full of questions today. We understand in the story of the ancient text that when Mary gets to Elizabeth's house After she's been told and she's gonna have a, a child, that Elizabeth is like six months pregnant, mary comes in to the house and she immediately recognizes Her as Bearing my Lord's. You are bearing my Lord's Son. Yeah, she's the very first immediate, immediate, no conversation. Confess yeah, before Jesus is born, she declares him to be the Lord.
Speaker 2:And then there's this little activity in her stomach, yes, her pregnancy, you know, as we know, it was John, john, he was named John and he jumps around and moves and it's some indication here there.
Speaker 2:There is something in that connection Between Mary and Elizabeth and the activity of John jumping in the womb that Says to me that the relationship that happens With women Is paramount to understanding the spiritual path.
Speaker 2:Like they gave us this example, the two of them, you know, be it as their ages were, there was something significant that that Elizabeth sees, recognizes, calls it out and understands, even before Mary can get the excitement out of her own mouth. Right, yes, yes, it's such a beautiful, a beautiful place that I think in Maybe in our culture, in Maybe in our culture and our times, that women have not Been given that place to speak from or to understand, or what we bring our gifts to society, or Either in corporate America or in the church, or in education or health care, what, whatever industry or career that we are involved in In the church or in education. It seems to me like these two have set the bar For understanding that the connection that happens Is a spiritual one. First, right, you can actually, with other women who understand the movement of the divine feminine in their lives. It's a game changer.
Speaker 1:I want to also bring up the point that it would have been a journey for Mary to actually go and see her cousin Elizabeth. It wasn't just like next door or in the town next door.
Speaker 1:So there's a little bit of well, a lot of bit of effort in actually being in the presence of other women, or of her cousin, elizabeth, and so sometimes for me, I look at that pattern of making an effort to be in the presence of other women and I assume she went to Elizabeth. This is, you know, holy imagination, but maybe Elizabeth had already been very devoted to God or something that when Mary has this spiritual experience, she's like I need to go to Elizabeth.
Speaker 2:I need to get there.
Speaker 1:Elizabeth will understand, or Elizabeth will give space for this, or Elizabeth may even have information about this, but so she, you know, at some point recognizes this would be the right place to be. But it takes effort and I think that it's important for us to remember those kind of patterns where it might take effort for a person to be able to hear this and go. Well, I don't have someone who would understand the working of you, know the spirit around me, find that, find you know like, make the effort, go to that place. It might take a while when you're there to actually hear this.
Speaker 1:Now, elizabeth you're right in the story immediately senses the spirit, senses God, senses the miraculous and says the mother of my Lord, you know like this is I am blessing you and she calls out this blessing. I think that's a pattern right away that we can look at. She senses spirit and she speaks a blessing, and that is something how we almost identify an Elizabeth in our life. You know, to be able to say who is blessing the spirit that is within me, who is blessing the work that is within me, because at that point Mary was already that. The text tells us that she was already pregnant with Jesus, and so I love this idea that Elizabeth is already blessing what's happening. You know, I see the work of God in you, and I think also also Heather, the.
Speaker 2:The announcement by the angel to Mary includes, like there was enough collect in this angels mind to mention Elizabeth to Mary, right, like he prefaces what's what's about to happen to you is you know and I remind you that your cousin, your relative, is already pregnant, like there's a miracle going on in her and so, in you know, it's just like clicks. It clicks for Mary. That, okay, I'm going to listen, because maybe she already knew that Elizabeth was six months pregnant, maybe she'd heard it somehow got a post, you know, I don't know, I don't know how it came to her News gets around, but the angel mentioned it and so there's this connect, right immediately with this other sister, this other being that that God is doing and moving and breaking into into our lives in a feminine way.
Speaker 1:We see a little bit further in the story and that's what's beautiful about the ancient text, about the sacred text, to be able to say this that we get to see from history a different view of things.
Speaker 1:But we know that John the Baptist is this baby that Elizabeth has and we get to know him as the baptizer of Jesus. We get to know him as the person who says there is one coming after me whose shoes I am not even worthy to bear, like, immediately recognizes that this Messiah is bigger than him. And then we hear a little bit later Jesus talk about John and say the world has never seen a man as amazing as John, like the world doesn't even deserve this kind of a man. So I'm looking at this from this point in perspective and go what was happening in Elizabeth and in Mary, that the men that they birth, that they nurse, that they break their body and give it for these people are so different. And what is that call to me? To nurture in my life? The things that may be so different than the culture around me, the people around me the life around me.
Speaker 1:What do I do to hear their story and go? That's the courage I need to be able to continue the work that I feel called to do. Yes, yeah, it's beautiful, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, beautiful, exciting stuff Looking at women and saying they're giving us patterns and ideas so that we can choose the life that they have. Maybe not exactly, but this idea of we're going to co-create, we're going to live differently, we're going to use our gifts and honor our sacred feminine. It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheologycom.